(Slow Speed Practice) Onspeed AOA Video - Getting ready for Case 1 Landings

[Svsmokey]

I try to maintain that 1% through the break . As my speed drops eg: to 300 , , 3gs..@250 2.5 gs , etc

[majapahit]

There are 2 things I have been struggling with the past month for case 1 ( I will address 1 for the moment). I pass to the right side of the ship @ 800' at 350 kts, bringing the carrier down the left rail of my canopy. I go into the break with speed break full, power to idle and maintain (try too) 3.5 G's halfway through the break, gear and flaps down @ 250 kts. by the time I am about halfway through this break, I have turned too close to the carrier, usually I am about .8 miles abeam. I have watched all the tutorials over the months many times, I have read to maintain the 1% G up to halfway through the break, but its always too tight? At about halfway through the brak I am at about 250kts and dropping gear and flaps but then I try to level out a bit to get further away to target 1.2 kts abeam. It doesn't work for me or make sense to maintain 3.5 G when its too tight of a turn when trying to maintain that G. Now I know the response is likely to be something like " dont maintain so long" or " dont try to hold it halfway". I get it, that makes sense I suppose, so what is actually advised? I have seen NOTHING on YouTube or the forums to contradict what has been fairly consistent as far as instructions go, to maintain halfway thru the break? Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

 

 

The general advise to military F-18 pilots is "just do whatever you have to do to get properly on the bloody ship".

 

" .. " dont maintain so long" or " dont try to hold it halfway" .. ", indeed.

 

You seem to be not ‘in the break’, your ‘break’ starts ‘abeam’, before that when you mention ‘your break’ from starboard to port banking before the bow, you’re doing the cross pattern to downwind and level out to dirty up below 250 at portside, where when passing abeam, your opportunities for the ‘break’ start.

 

Study the pictures of the Case I pattern, all the wording is confusing indeed, I did too.

 

The F-18 is predisposed to throttle control, you cut the throttle it will brake on the spot and fall out of the air like a brick in the groove.

 

Don't bank that hard at the break (that started ‘abeam’ or past abeam to dirty up properly, when training at 1.4 it’s a lot easier, pass Abeam to 1.6 and then break, add some level flight),

 

I never watch G, I watch my speed, my banking and my flightpath, the “G” is the theoretical end result of a proper bank, the bank is what you do, the G follows.

 

Maintain throttle (you jerk the throttle hard up and down) during the break and just ‘know’ the arc that your flying and where you’ll be ending up behind the ship, and merging, you can arrive 'high on speed' and in your last part of the bank (200-220 I've done when heavy) lose all the speed to get 'on speed' for the glide slope, and do corrections with the Stennis in sight.

 

I can arrive merging at 170 with cut throttle and no problem slowing down to the 128-135 in the upper part of the glide slope.

 

Speedbrake in de glide slope (AI does that) seems a bad idea if you dip under the 'fall out of the sky speed', so you eagle eye your speed ribbon and anticipate ‘on speed’ for your weight and config, too long a correction on the throttle and the engine spool will balloon you away from the deck, dip below ‘on speed’ and you’re in big trouble.

 

After you can do this, you can start training the ‘short’ Break which indeed starts at the ‘abeam’ and at 0.8-1.1nm TCN and you dirty up in-the-break and full dirty at 90, with trimming blindly by timing your thumb

 

(but I now fly VR goggles, and all these squadron pilots wear VR goggles to exactly know where they are in the short break, that’s only allowed to very experienced pilots in RL on punishment of having to leave the boat .. )

[Fakum]

I actually break either 1 mile or 1.5 miles past the bow

 

"Study the pictures of the Case I pattern, all the wording is confusing indeed, I did too." I am not at all confused with it, I have studied it to the point where it has been retained to memory. that is not an issue at all, its that "maintain G up to halfway through the break" that has been problematic for me.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Fakum

[majapahit]

I actually break either 1 mile or 1.5 miles past the bow

"Study the pictures of the Case I pattern, all the wording is confusing indeed, I did too." I am not at all confused with it, I have studied it to the point where it has been retained to memory. that is not an issue at all, its that "maintain G up to halfway through the break" that has been problematic for me.

??

" .. bringing the carrier down the left rail of my canopy. I go into the break with speed break full, power to idle and maintain (try too) 3.5 G's halfway through the break, gear and flaps down @ 250 kts. by the time I am about halfway through this break, I have turned too close to the carrier, usually I am about .8 miles abeam.

This is the crosswind leg, just level you plane a tad, and you'll be further abeam, watch the support ship, and then you know where you are. This is not 'the break', this is 'after breaking the deck into the pattern' where you're now 'breaking towards the downwind leg' of the pattern

I have watched all the tutorials over the months many times, I have read to maintain the 1% G up to halfway through the break, but its always too tight? At about halfway through the brak I am at about 250kts and dropping gear and flaps but then I try to level out a bit to get further away to target 1.2 kts abeam.

You're past the crosswind leg of the pattern in the downwind leg, you can dirty up from here and WHEN LEVEL set your AOA E-bracket and be 'on speed' which will be the same speed for the top of your glideslope, you're flying level, full dirty

It doesn't work for me or make sense to maintain 3.5 G when its too tight of a turn when trying to maintain that G. Now I know the response is likely to be something like " dont maintain so long" or " dont try to hold it halfway". I get it, that makes sense I suppose, so what is actually advised? I have seen NOTHING on YouTube or the forums to contradict what has been fairly consistent as far as instructions go, to maintain halfway thru the break? Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

If on the downwind leg you're full dirty and on E-bracket level flight 'on speed' which probably is 130-135kts, that's where you 'break' for your base leg,

 

you bank, you add throttle (quite a lot) to keep your envelope on the same lift as from the level E-bracket 'on speed', and you make your 180 to the stern of mother, where at 45 you see mother, and look for the wake and positioning yourself.

 

You do not measure by "G" but you measure by bank, speed, pitch and letting go of pitch, altitude, descent rate, and resulting flight path (and this result in ABOUT said 'G").

 

If you turn too tight, you level a couple of degrees and could add throttle (you're actually constantly yanking the throttle to be on your planned flight path),

 

and simply remember what you did to stay on your flight path for next time around.

Edited October 6, 2018 by majapahit

[Arbil]

Ever since the FM update a couple months ago I have been having so much trouble putting it down on the deck. The best way I can describe it is that I am floating right before touchdown. Constantly. It even feels this way doing ground landings now. The slightest throttle correction to slow my decent rate seems to just send me upwards like a balloon that a child let go on accident. I can immediately go idle after that small correction and it seems like it takes a year to start descending again. I'm sure part of the problem is my frustration and part (of the carrier landings at least) is that I am really trying to get better at using the ball for throttle corrections in the last 3/4 mile and not just spotting the deck with the VV. But damn, ever since that last big FM change it has destroyed my ability to land the plane properly and I don't know what to do to correct it, even after hours of practice.

[majapahit]

Ever since the FM update a couple months ago I have been having so much trouble putting it down on the deck. The best way I can describe it is that I am floating right before touchdown. Constantly. It even feels this way doing ground landings now. The slightest throttle correction to slow my decent rate seems to just send me upwards like a balloon that a child let go on accident. I can immediately go idle after that small correction and it seems like it takes a year to start descending again. I'm sure part of the problem is my frustration and part (of the carrier landings at least) is that I am really trying to get better at using the ball for throttle corrections in the last 3/4 mile and not just spotting the deck with the VV. But damn, ever since that last big FM change it has destroyed my ability to land the plane properly and I don't know what to do to correct it, even after hours of practice.

 

I guess you're too fast, or rather, you think you're on speed, because you trimmed nicely and stamped this number in your head what the accompanying 'on speed' number read, but,

 

if that number is just 1-3 kts too fast than actually necessary to have the proper lift (and AOA) for you to land,

 

you get yourself in trouble, because your upwards correction will overshoot, whilst your downwards speed correction will be too high still, and you also might float, like you said.

 

On the top of the slope in the merge levelling out, you check the movements of the F-18 under your butt in regards to your hand throttle movements.

 

Yank down, for, when levelling you gained lift at the merge, the F-18 must slow down and/or drop perhaps a couple of feet,

 

when you then yank the throttle forward, and spool up, your eagle eyes on the speed ribbon watch How fast you accelerate beyond your provisional 'on speed', and gain a foot or so (or a yard, when in high winds).

 

And then when you yank back again to lower the W on the deck and in the meantime to not overspool the thrust, you eagle eye the speed ribbon where to anticipate thrust again to not get into the ‘drop like a brick’ zone of the flight envelope.

 

4-5kts over actual 'on speed' gets you to where you will balloon, 2-3kts speed under actual ‘on speed’ will end you against the stern, which is worse even.

 

Thus, within a handful of seconds at the top of the slope, you should and must discover the real number for the 'on speed' in the given actual weather, temperature, wind, turbulence, weight, AOA, where you are in the resulting flight envelope etcetera.

 

Now you can move down, yanking the throttle around your actual ‘on speed’, you bank a little you compensate the throttle, you aim down you compensate the throttle, you aim up you compensate the throttle,

 

stay precisely away from the lower end of your flight envelope and stop the spooling up by anticipation at the higher end.

 

And then you hit wire #3.

[Arbil]

I guess you're too fast, or rather, you think you're on speed, because you trimmed nicely and stamped this number in your head what the accompanying 'on speed' number read, but,

 

 

Once I dirty up to get on speed I don't pay any attention to my airspeed number.

[majapahit]

Once I dirty up to get on speed I don't pay any attention to my airspeed number.

Well, balloon away and be happy.

[Gierasimov]

This ^^

 

I guess you're too fast, or rather, you think you're on speed, because you trimmed nicely and stamped this number in your head what the accompanying 'on speed' number read, but,

 

if that number is just 1-3 kts too fast than actually necessary to have the proper lift (and AOA) for you to land,

 

you get yourself in trouble, because your upwards correction will overshoot, whilst your downwards speed correction will be too high still, and you also might float, like you said.

 

On the top of the slope in the merge levelling out, you check the movements of the F-18 under your butt in regards to your hand throttle movements.

 

Yank down, for, when levelling you gained lift at the merge, the F-18 must slow down and/or drop perhaps a couple of feet,

 

when you then yank the throttle forward, and spool up, your eagle eyes on the speed ribbon watch How fast you accelerate beyond your provisional 'on speed', and gain a foot or so (or a yard, when in high winds).

 

And then when you yank back again to lower the W on the deck and in the meantime to not overspool the thrust, you eagle eye the speed ribbon where to anticipate thrust again to not get into the ‘drop like a brick’ zone of the flight envelope.

 

4-5kts over actual 'on speed' gets you to where you will balloon, 2-3kts speed under actual ‘on speed’ will end you against the stern, which is worse even.

 

Thus, within a handful of seconds at the top of the slope, you should and must discover the real number for the 'on speed' in the given actual weather, temperature, wind, turbulence, weight, AOA, where you are in the resulting flight envelope etcetera.

 

Now you can move down, yanking the throttle around your actual ‘on speed’, you bank a little you compensate the throttle, you aim down you compensate the throttle, you aim up you compensate the throttle,

 

stay precisely away from the lower end of your flight envelope and stop the spooling up by anticipation at the higher end.

 

And then you hit wire #3.

 

... Yep, been doing that ever since I tried my first trap a month ago, and now, 23 traps later I can say this works very well. I just watched Lex'es and Wags' YT and it was more than enough for the sim.

[David OC]

Ever since the FM update a couple months ago I have been having so much trouble putting it down on the deck. The best way I can describe it is that I am floating right before touchdown. Constantly. It even feels this way doing ground landings now. The slightest throttle correction to slow my decent rate seems to just send me upwards like a balloon that a child let go on accident. I can immediately go idle after that small correction and it seems like it takes a year to start descending again. I'm sure part of the problem is my frustration and part (of the carrier landings at least) is that I am really trying to get better at using the ball for throttle corrections in the last 3/4 mile and not just spotting the deck with the VV. But damn, ever since that last big FM change it has destroyed my ability to land the plane properly and I don't know what to do to correct it, even after hours of practice.

 

You need to find your throttle range, you cannot hold a perfect throttle position.

 

You can get close but never perfect.

 

Now I'm not sure the FM is spot on and finish now? Either way don't let a fighter jet do what it wants, it's a fighter, hold some pressure when leveling out from the break if need be. Hold her nose level at 800 and bring the E bracket down to you and be ready to bring in some throttle to catch the on speed around 140.

 

At that point you should have no pitch pressure on the stick.

 

Watch the first video in this thread by a real F/A-18 pilot that shows you how to do this, the big one for me was learning to inject enough power into the aircraft before tuning so she stays quite level.

 

Same when you roll out in the groove, you need to pull power before leveling off (Then catch it) because you have away to much energy in the aircraft when holding a 30 degrees of bank (Less Lift = more power). So when you roll out you gain a lot of wing lift. You can even drop a wing slightly to help drop a little lift if there is still to much energy, instead of pulling the throttle to zero (Not Good).

 

To control this easier you need the throttle between 50% and 90%

This keeps the engine nice and responsive (spooled), when you go to low you get lag and start those large throttle oscillations, which are not good.

 

Edit:

Quick video showing you holding the nose at the level and at the end I show what happens if you don't add power before banking. Have a play and practice this not in the pattern so it becomes 2nd nature first, then do patterns and touch and go's around the carrier with the hook up.

 

 

So you can force the aircraft to where you need the aircraft to be, don't let it fly itself. Once on speed, stay on speed and control the height with throttle.

 

Add more throttle "speed" just before entering the downwind bank, then catch the "little drop" with the throttle. (Practice);)

 

Back off the throttle a little just before rolling into the groove, then catch and energize the ball.

Edited October 7, 2018 by David OC

[Mav87th]

I see the same thing Fakum. But the 1% is only a "guide" its not a rule you have to follow strictly. It will help you on the right path, but you have to loosen up a little bit and fly it more to where it should be in the end.

I'm still struggling when rolling out on downwind to get trimmed right without ballooning and/or loosing too much altitude.

Was almost there today as i stopped using the speedbrake, it seems to unsettle the flightmodel a lot and unpredictable. so....more attempts to go

[Nealius]

Since the FM update the Hornet is a lot more slippery and doesn't slow down well without speedbrake usage, making the carrier break turn a little frustrating. Even when breaking 1nm past the bow like a T-45 nugget, aiming for 1.1nm abeam there's not enough maneuvering space to pull the necessary G to get configured prior to abeam the LSO station without using the speedbrake, yet accounts from pilots is that using the speedbrake is "for p***ies." My groove turn ends up delayed because the jet won't slow down quickly enough in the downwind. 

[rob10]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Since the FM update the Hornet is a lot more slippery and doesn't slow down well without speedbrake usage, making the carrier break turn a little frustrating. Even when breaking 1nm past the bow like a T-45 nugget, aiming for 1.1nm abeam there's not enough maneuvering space to pull the necessary G to get configured prior to abeam the LSO station without using the speedbrake, yet accounts from pilots is that using the speedbrake is "for p***ies." My groove turn ends up delayed because the jet won't slow down quickly enough in the downwind. 

Sorry, but if you're not getting down to speed in the break (at least to <250 kts so you can drop gear and flaps to lose more speed) you're not doing it right.  Not sure when last time I used the speed brake in the break.  You might want to aim for 1.5 nm.  That lets you do a 30 deg turn to the groove.

[Nealius]

7 hours ago, rob10 said:

Sorry, but if you're not getting down to speed in the break (at least to <250 kts so you can drop gear and flaps to lose more speed) you're not doing it right. 

Configured, i.e. on-speed AoA. I said nothing about not being able to get the gear down. Once on downwind with gear/flaps down I'm still at 220-230kts, and the ballooning won't settle until I'm well past the LSO station. That's with a 3.5G (sometimes initially 4G) pull at 350kts in the break.

7 hours ago, rob10 said:

You might want to aim for 1.5 nm.  That lets you do a 30 deg turn to the groove.

1.5nm is way to wide. Not enough G to decelerate for that. Groove turn at that distance would be 25 or even less AoB.

Edited February 21 by Nealius

[Mav87th]

Small update on my part...

beginning to nail the brake and downwind and the grove now. Braking at 0.5nm past the bow of the carrier, NO speed brake and as soon as i see 250 its gears and full flaps and then i keep the throttle idled until i see 170, then add a little to catch the speed on aoa. then i trim up some 8-10 times on the hat, throttle a little up and turn into the final turn.

 

@Arbil I saw the same floating thing you do. I disabled turbulence and its now gone. Question is if you really do have to idle over the stern in anticipation of the floating (upwind from the stern, turbulence from the carrier) of if the effect is exaggerated in the flightmodel of DCS... Anyway, disabling turbulence helped me.

[Akula]

On 6/12/2018 at 3:42 PM, ClearDark said:

 

 

Not to step on your toes, but this recovery was far from perfect. Coming in too low all the way in (extremely dangerous)

I landed. That’s all I care about.