need help ! Air Refuelling how to keep contact ? speed

[Biggus]

Let me preface this by saying I am a rank amateur in the art of air to air refuelling. I tried it a lot in the A-10C and I could never manage to stay hooked up, and it was quite frustrating. So I was somewhat anxious about learning how to do it in the Hornet and my anxieties initially gave me a severe pilot-induced oscillation issue.

 

I tried to refuel in the instant action mission using ATC, and although it helped my approach to the tanker initially, I found it a bit problematic once hooked up.

 

As you fill up your tanks, the tanker will gradually get faster by maybe one or two knots. He'll enter turns where you need to adjust the throttle a bit too, and all the while, your aircraft is getting heavier. I found that the effort to constantly engage and reengage the ATC was not worth the effort.

 

What has worked for me has been to activate the BAlt AP. It dampens my joystick input and I can concentrate on throttle control. The throttle is constantly moving. I am not waiting to see whether I am getting closer to or more distant from the tanker. Stay a step ahead of your throttle input. Keep your distance from the tanker as consistent as you can. A few seconds of getting closer, a couple of seconds dropping back. You're trying to maintain a speed that is a specific fraction of a knot, and that specific fraction of a knot is changing with all the forces acting on your aircraft and the tanker.

 

I've been doing this for the last two days, and I'm now able to reliably fill the Hornet with fuel. It might still take me three or four disconnections, but I feel like it's easier than a case 1 carrier recovery.

[bin801]

Whenever I have problems staying connected it is usually because I'm focusing too much on the basket. If I catch myself doing that going back to focusing on my position relative to the tanker helps alot.

 

Thanks！

[bin801]

That really depends on the mission, and on the tanker. The actual speed is set by the mission designer. If you're lucky, the mission briefing tells you the tanker speed. If you don't know it, you'll just have to figure it out yourself.

 

Ultimately, it's about formation flying. In formation, you don't care about your speed. The only thing that matters is the aircraft you're flying against. Or to quote an F-16 pilot in close formation, about his lead aircraft: "Lead is my entire world now."

 

As for staying connected, I've never tried it with ATC. When I look at my left hand, at first the oscillations went through roughly 60% of the full range of motion, and I was constantly adjusting like crazy. Yet it actually helped me to stay relatively stable.

With some more practice, the oscillations are much smaller now. But there isn't really a "sweet spot" for the throttles. Constantly adjusting throttles is what real pilots do (to the best of my knowledge). The trick is to be ahead of the jet. Add power before you slow down, and reduce power before you overshoot. With practice, you won't even notice that your throttle hand keeps working.

 

So, ultimately, the trick is to do it long enough for muscle memory to kick in, and don't let frustration get the better of you before that happens. But it's okay to shoot down the tanker every once in a while. I think we've all done it. ;)

 

Really helpful ! The understanding on what those real pilot suffer really calm me down and kick myself back to cockpit for training. Now I don't think I miss any step or made any mistake, I feel lucky I am not in real cockpit. Tough!!!! all I need is training and training

I think carrier landing dosen't deserve a badge. Air refueling deserve!

 

Is Air refueling an everyone-has ability for each pilot whose aircraft has air refueling capability ?

[bin801]

Yes ATC will hold speed at whatever speed you press it. So if you are going 345 then press atc it will hold at that speed.

 

Thank you!

Now, I am sure I didn't misunderstanding ATC function. It helps !!

[bin801]

i would not recommend you think too much about the speed.

 

you are flying formation with the tanker. look at the tanker, not your hud.

 

Roger , I'll keep it in mind !!!!

it helpful

[probad]

Is Air refueling an everyone-has ability for each pilot whose aircraft has air refueling capability ?

certainly.

 

aar builds upon the fundamental skill of formation flying, irl pilots have to be proficient at formation flying before progressing to aar.

 

if you are having trouble with aar it means you have poor formation flying skills.

of course there is no risk involved in simulations, so conversely aar is a good way to sharpen your formation flying skills for dcs.

 

your combat flying will benefit a lot from getting better at aar, you will have an easier time flying in a coordinated manner with other players because you are more proficient at holding formations. you will also be better at managing airspeed for maneuvers which is important for controlling your positional geometry in dogfights.

Edited June 22, 2018 by probad

[Yurgon]

Is Air refueling an everyone-has ability for each pilot whose aircraft has air refueling capability ?

 

In DCS, certainly not. It's entirely up to you whether you train to be able to do it or not. I know about DCS pilots who just couldn't get it done, and they kind of gave up on AAR, and they'd rather divert to another airport than attempt AAR.

 

In real life, I don't even know how many tax payer dollars are spent on getting a pilot into the pit. For them to be mission qualified, they absolutely have to be able to do it.

 

Even more so in naval ops: what could they do if they've boltered a few times (maybe in bad weather, or at night, or they're just exhausted after flying a combat sortie and not getting enough sleep), with absolutely no airfield in range to divert to? They absolutely have to be able to hit the tanker, get some gas, and try landing on the boat until they catch a wire. Or grab gas and actually divert to the nearest airport.

 

Naval pilot or not, AAR drastically extends the range, and the mission capabilities, of any fighter (and attacker, helicopter, cargo plane, surveillance plane and so on) that is equipped for it. For RL pilots not being able to refuel would pretty much disqualify them from flying the aircraft outside of training, and I don't think any Air Force would continue to employ them under these conditions (though I might be wrong, but that's my understanding so far).

 

Edit: Sniped by probad. :) He's definitely right that being good at AAR helps with being a better pilot in any type of cooperative flying!

Edited June 22, 2018 by Yurgon

[bin801]

Let me preface this by saying I am a rank amateur in the art of air to air refuelling. I tried it a lot in the A-10C and I could never manage to stay hooked up, and it was quite frustrating. So I was somewhat anxious about learning how to do it in the Hornet and my anxieties initially gave me a severe pilot-induced oscillation issue.

 

I tried to refuel in the instant action mission using ATC, and although it helped my approach to the tanker initially, I found it a bit problematic once hooked up.

 

As you fill up your tanks, the tanker will gradually get faster by maybe one or two knots. He'll enter turns where you need to adjust the throttle a bit too, and all the while, your aircraft is getting heavier. I found that the effort to constantly engage and reengage the ATC was not worth the effort.

 

What has worked for me has been to activate the BAlt AP. It dampens my joystick input and I can concentrate on throttle control. The throttle is constantly moving. I am not waiting to see whether I am getting closer to or more distant from the tanker. Stay a step ahead of your throttle input. Keep your distance from the tanker as consistent as you can. A few seconds of getting closer, a couple of seconds dropping back. You're trying to maintain a speed that is a specific fraction of a knot, and that specific fraction of a knot is changing with all the forces acting on your aircraft and the tanker.

 

I've been doing this for the last two days, and I'm now able to reliably fill the Hornet with fuel. It might still take me three or four disconnections, but I feel like it's easier than a case 1 carrier recovery.

 

Now I know. Training and training. Helpful thank you.

I want to know, in real world, dose every pilot for F18 or AV8b or M2000 needs to past this test and to be qualify to graduate?

[bin801]

certainly.

 

aar builds upon the fundamental skill of formation flying, irl pilots have to be proficient at formation flying before progressing to aar.

 

if you are having trouble with aar it means you have poor formation flying skills.

of course there is no risk involved in simulations, so conversely aar is a good way to sharpen your formation flying skills for dcs.

 

your combat flying will benefit a lot from getting better at aar, you will have an easier time flying in a coordinated manner with other players because you are more proficient at holding formations. you will also be better at managing airspeed for maneuvers which is important for controlling your positional geometry in dogfights.

 

OMG, now I know how many lesson I missed............

thank you!

[Biggus]

Now I know. Training and training. Helpful thank you.

I want to know, in real world, dose every pilot for F18 or AV8b or M2000 needs to past this test and to be qualify to graduate?

 

I'm not a member of any military force and never have been, so I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that question.

 

But looking at the empty weight of a Hornet, the maximum takeoff weights, the weight of ordnance and the weight of fuel, I think I'd be surprised if there were active fighter pilots who are unable to receive fuel from a tanker safely, even in air forces where they don't own tanker assets.

 

While I don't think it's particularly easy to learn in real life, remember that sitting at a computer, you are not feeling the sensations that you would feel in a real aircraft and if you're using a monitor, you're missing out of a lot of depth perception. So the things that make it hard for us might not be the things that make it hard for a Hornet pilot. Does that make sense?

Edited June 22, 2018 by Biggus
Grammar, syntax, etc

[bin801]

certainly.

 

aar builds upon the fundamental skill of formation flying, irl pilots have to be proficient at formation flying before progressing to aar.

 

if you are having trouble with aar it means you have poor formation flying skills.

of course there is no risk involved in simulations, so conversely aar is a good way to sharpen your formation flying skills for dcs.

 

your combat flying will benefit a lot from getting better at aar, you will have an easier time flying in a coordinated manner with other players because you are more proficient at holding formations. you will also be better at managing airspeed for maneuvers which is important for controlling your positional geometry in dogfights.

 

one more question, please.

I 'v kept this question for years.

When I read war history, specially WW 1 and WW 2. Pilot say never fly a straight line more than one minutes over Strait of Dover , which means pilot need to be alert and keep looking around.

More eyes means more alertness. But during formation flight, only leader pilot has free eyes. How can those wingmen struggle to keep formation and look around? I watched many documantations trying to find answer, but no veteran mention this topic. Any knowledge I can share?

[ouPhrontis]

In a combat theatre wing elements would be in combat spread, not a close airshow formation. Combat spread being several thousand feet apart and a thousand foot step-up or down, depending.

 

See here, for example (at the time stamp provided, too);

 

https://youtu.be/pQvF7V-VEYI?t=2m10s

Edited June 22, 2018 by ouPhrontis

[bin801]

In DCS, certainly not. It's entirely up to you whether you train to be able to do it or not. I know about DCS pilots who just couldn't get it done, and they kind of gave up on AAR, and they'd rather divert to another airport than attempt AAR.

 

In real life, I don't even know how many tax payer dollars are spent on getting a pilot into the pit. For them to be mission qualified, they absolutely have to be able to do it.

 

Even more so in naval ops: what could they do if they've boltered a few times (maybe in bad weather, or at night, or they're just exhausted after flying a combat sortie and not getting enough sleep), with absolutely no airfield in range to divert to? They absolutely have to be able to hit the tanker, get some gas, and try landing on the boat until they catch a wire. Or grab gas and actually divert to the nearest airport.

 

Naval pilot or not, AAR drastically extends the range, and the mission capabilities, of any fighter (and attacker, helicopter, cargo plane, surveillance plane and so on) that is equipped for it. For RL pilots not being able to refuel would pretty much disqualify them from flying the aircraft outside of training, and I don't think any Air Force would continue to employ them under these conditions (though I might be wrong, but that's my understanding so far).

 

Edit: Sniped by probad. :) He's definitely right that being good at AAR helps with being a better pilot in any type of cooperative flying!

 

TOP GUN II will be put on screen soon. I watched TOP GUN when I was a child. After read what you wrote, this is the first time, I really feel combat pilot is a real skill job, really. Not just healthy that simple.

Respect !

[bin801]

I'm not a member of any military force and never have been, so I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that question.

 

But looking at the empty weight of a Hornet, the maximum takeoff weights, the weight of ordnance and the weight of fuel, I think I'd be surprised if there were active fighter pilots who are unable to receive fuel from a tanker safely, even in air forces where they don't own tanker assets.

 

While I don't think it's particularly easy to learn in real life, remember that sitting at a computer, you are not feeling the sensations that you would feel in a real aircraft and if you're using a monitor, you're missing out of a lot of depth perception. So the things that make it hard for us might not be the things that make it hard for a Hornet pilot. Does that make sense?

 

True.

[probad]

one more question, please.

I 'v kept this question for years.

When I read war history, specially WW 1 and WW 2. Pilot say never fly a straight line more than one minutes over Strait of Dover , which means pilot need to be alert and keep looking around.

More eyes means more alertness. But during formation flight, only leader pilot has free eyes. How can those wingmen struggle to keep formation and look around? I watched many documantations trying to find answer, but no veteran mention this topic. Any knowledge I can share?

 

generally:

-it's primarily an issue of proficiency, once you are good at flying formation, you only need to spot another flight element out of the corner of your eye to keep formation with him.

 

-flight lead issues communications to wingmen on his intentions

 

specifically:

-for the battle of britain, enemies came en masse and so spotting wasn't a real issue. flights would be guided to the enemy formations using ground radar and then it would just devolve into a free for all furball.

but yes, welded wing formations like the 'vic' turned out to not be conducive to aerial combat.

 

-in the pacific the us adopted loose deuce, as separation made it easier for wingmen to be fluid and responsive. wingman and leader were free to exchange lead depending on who had the better offensive position. loose formation only requires the two aircraft to be in general proximity to each other, lessening demand on precise stationkeeping.

 

pQvF7V-VEYI

this may also shed some insight on how formations are managed.

Edited June 22, 2018 by probad

[sze5003]

My warthog stick is getting sticky so I use auto throttle which gives me ability to focus on lining up and staying level. Once I get my new virpil warBRD base I think it should be easier to make fine small adjustments with the stick and not go crazy.

[bin801]

i would not recommend you think too much about the speed.

 

you are flying formation with the tanker. look at the tanker, not your hud.

 

After read all friends replies, and after one night practice, I can finish refueling and, day by day, better and better.

Your reply is one of the most helpful ! after your reply, during my practice, I realized, I put 80-90% attention on HUD and fail everytime to stay contact,

later I follow what you told me, I put 80% attention on tanker instead of HUD, I can stay contact much longer.

Thank you

Edited July 4, 2018 by bin801

[bin801]

Whenever I have problems staying connected it is usually because I'm focusing too much on the basket. If I catch myself doing that going back to focusing on my position relative to the tanker helps alot.

 

 

Your reply help me alot ! yes, what you said really help, after I focus on relative position of tanker, suddenly I can keep contact. suddenly! So this is a very useful and basic principle.

Thank you

Edited July 4, 2018 by bin801

[Pikey]

You only use somewhat close formations like Cruise for going from one place to another. If you are getting close to combat you use much much wider formations like combat spread or loose deuce and use a scan that includes your wingman and make sure the scan is repeated regularly. This gives you heads down time and doesn't demand you use most of your brain for formating.

 

 

one more question, please.

I 'v kept this question for years.

When I read war history, specially WW 1 and WW 2. Pilot say never fly a straight line more than one minutes over Strait of Dover , which means pilot need to be alert and keep looking around.

More eyes means more alertness. But during formation flight, only leader pilot has free eyes. How can those wingmen struggle to keep formation and look around? I watched many documantations trying to find answer, but no veteran mention this topic. Any knowledge I can share?

[bin801]

That really depends on the mission, and on the tanker. The actual speed is set by the mission designer. If you're lucky, the mission briefing tells you the tanker speed. If you don't know it, you'll just have to figure it out yourself.

 

Ultimately, it's about formation flying. In formation, you don't care about your speed. The only thing that matters is the aircraft you're flying against. Or to quote an F-16 pilot in close formation, about his lead aircraft: "Lead is my entire world now."

 

As for staying connected, I've never tried it with ATC. When I look at my left hand, at first the oscillations went through roughly 60% of the full range of motion, and I was constantly adjusting like crazy. Yet it actually helped me to stay relatively stable.

With some more practice, the oscillations are much smaller now. But there isn't really a "sweet spot" for the throttles. Constantly adjusting throttles is what real pilots do (to the best of my knowledge). The trick is to be ahead of the jet. Add power before you slow down, and reduce power before you overshoot. With practice, you won't even notice that your throttle hand keeps working.

 

So, ultimately, the trick is to do it long enough for muscle memory to kick in, and don't let frustration get the better of you before that happens. But it's okay to shoot down the tanker every once in a while. I think we've all done it. ;)

 

Now, I kept adjusting throttle slightly. Most important is that I know,now, it is not crazy because that is the right way, the way real pilots take. Thank you!

[bin801]

You only use somewhat close formations like Cruise for going from one place to another. If you are getting close to combat you use much much wider formations like combat spread or loose deuce and use a scan that includes your wingman and make sure the scan is repeated regularly. This gives you heads down time and doesn't demand you use most of your brain for formating.

 

Thank you!

[Yurgon]

After read all friends replies, and after one night practice, I can finish refueling and, day by day, better and better.

 

Great to hear that! :thumbup:

[Doum76]

After read all friends replies, and after one night practice, I can finish refueling and, day by day, better and better.

Your reply is one of the most helpful ! after your reply, during my practice, I realized, I put 80-90% attention on HUD and fail everytime to stay contact,

later I follow what you told me, I put 80% attention on tanker instead of HUD, I can stay contact much longer.

Thank you

 

 

Glad to hear. I'd say if you'Re comfortable with formation flying, with practice you'll end up doing it while holding the stick in one hand, and a beer in the other. :) The Hornet is the easiest aircraft/module in DCS for air refueling in my own opinion. Keep up the good work man. :)

[captain_dalan]

Just landing may be easier, but doing a correct pattern, staying on-speed and on the glideslope all the time and hitting a consistent 3 wire is much harder than AAR could ever be, regardless of aircraft.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

Not for me mate, not for me..... :lol:

[bengo]

Is it normal for the basket to disconnect when you fly too far forward while refueling? Seems wrong phisically, I'd think the air-pressure (from forward motion) would keep it firmly on the probe.