SA-19 no MWS or lock on warning?

[Tj1376]

Total newb question - why is there no lockon tone warning or missile launch warning in the F18 for the SA19? If a SA13 launches, I get the proper tones followed by the missile launch warning.

 

What is different about the SA19? I see the SA6 popup on the RWR, but it never moves into the threat area and the only time I've ever gotten a RWR tone on it (and the proper SAM indication) was when it was firing its guns at me (not its missiles.)

 

What am I not understanding correctly for employment of this powerful beast in air to ground missions?

 

Thx in advance

 

TJ

[Boogieman]

The Tunguska has an optical tracking feature IIRC, so doesn't always need a radar lock to guide a SAM onto you.

[abyss123100]

The SA-19's missiles are guided by optics I think? It has a radar which it uses rarely I'm assuming for better target acquisition. After reading Wikipedia it appears that an optical solution can be used as a back-up. The missile is guided optically, so the missile can only track in a lag pursuit. Missile plume is also super super super bare, so spotting missiles trails to see where it's firing from is nearly impossible. My advise would be to stay high in an enemy's AO and when low just keep turning, the missile isn't very good at hitting maneuvering targets.

[Cik]

SA-19 missiles are radio command guidance, they don't need to hard lock you to kill you with them.

 

 

the hard lock and frequency pattern is what trips your launch warning indication, if there is no hard lock and frequency pattern, and/or you are in a blind spot of your RWR, there will be no launch warning unless you have a missile approach warning system, which may trip automatically depending on however it works. (usually IR flash, audio indication (sonic boom?) or radar tracking or some combination IIRC)

 

 

the best way to survive these types of things generally is to never enter their envelope, usually the best way of doing that is just flying at a normal fast jet altitude of 25,000+ and not playing around in the dirt like a peasant.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Cik

[munckmb]

Does the Hornet even have a functional MWS? Like for example the A-10 or M-2000?

[Cik]

not as far as i know. they aren't really standard equipment on most of the jets i'm familiar with, for a bunch of probably fairly good reasons.

 

 

if you are in WEZ of anything heatseeking you have already screwed up tbh, esp. in a fighter. practice good pre-emptive IRCM and you will be all good.

[Eaglewings]

Is it possible on the Hornet to get the threat circle on a SAM overlay on the HSI similar to what the F-16 would do. By this one is able to see threat circle of these SAM and be careful not to enter their weapon employment zone. Alternatively, how do one know WEZ of SAM in a mission

[Cik]

it's guesswork. we don't have mission planning tools like you are used to.

[Boogiesg]

This thing is kind of an interesting oddity what with having guns and missiles. The optical mode can be used during the day to track the angle/elevation to target without giving itself away but that isn't enough or always the case. You still need to know the range to target, the target's vector and the missiles location. All of this stuff is handled by the radar. It maintains the track while slaving the optics to the radar. What it's really doing is keeping the target centered in the hotshot antenna. The fact that the optics stay pointed at the target during the whole engangement is really just a consequence of that. Elevation and range can be coarsely handled by the hot shot radar which can do some whiz bang thigns like change frequency every time it send a pulse. These pulses aren't just bouncing off the plane by the way, there are multiple channels so it can track the missile with pulse modulated commands that feed it course corrections. some of this rf bounces off the missile and gets received by the hot shot to update the track, hence command guidance.

[Tj1376]

I get all that... I know the sa-19 is optically guided.

 

So is the SA-13... but when it’s optics lock me up, the (I’m assuming) laser warning system goes off giving me the notice that I’ve been locked up.

 

What’s different about the sa-19 optics that doesn’t cause this same behavior?

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[razo+r]

SA-13 has a radar with which it can lock you, afaik it isn't equipped with a laser. Probably this one is triggering your RWR.

 

The SA-19, sloppy said, just needs to point at you and with the command guidance does not really need any lock.

[Cik]

SA-13 is range-only, afaik it isn't supposed to generate a launch warning but it does (tbh i could be wrong about this though) SA-19 definitely appears on RWR but it will never bother locking you because it's probably just going to be in a TWS style mode and that will be good enough.

 

 

it might however hardlock you if it is going to use it's AAA component and if that happens you have screwed up.

[red_coreSix]

The missile up-link should definitely trip the RWR, what it produces is really up to ED but should be a missile launch warning.

[Cik]

that seems speculative at best. if M-link can trip RWR, why does AMRAAM/R-77 not trip RWR?

 

 

they maintain M-link up 'till terminal AFAIK. imo you'd have to rewrite the whole system if every M-link tripped missile warning.

[Revelation]

Is it possible on the Hornet to get the threat circle on a SAM overlay on the HSI similar to what the F-16 would do. By this one is able to see threat circle of these SAM and be careful not to enter their weapon employment zone. Alternatively, how do one know WEZ of SAM in a mission

 

That type of feature should come with the SA (Situational Awareness) Page.

[Cik]

you'd need mission planning tools on top of that though, ideally outside mission editor.

[red_coreSix]

that seems speculative at best. if M-link can trip RWR, why does AMRAAM/R-77 not trip RWR?

 

 

they maintain M-link up 'till terminal AFAIK. imo you'd have to rewrite the whole system if every M-link tripped missile warning.

 

The uplink is, as opposed to the low powered side-lobe datalink on the AIM-120, probably a very directional, high powered signal for ECCM. Same deal with other command guidance missiles like the SA-2.

[Nealius]

Having just been downed by a silent SA-19, I have a question about its optical guidance system. How effective is it at night? I was rolling in on the target then out of nowhere my right wing blew off and my pilot got shredded by shrapnel. Debrief says it was an SA-19. No launch warning on my RWR, so apparently it was guided onto my jet optically in the dark...

[Deezle]

I took a long break from DCS. Now that I'm back I notice the Tunguska missiles are now smokeless. It's incredibly deadly now, because unless you're zoomed in and looking directly at it, you'll never see the launch. Otherwise if you can see the launch, the missile itself isn't that hard to trash.

[Kev2go]

Having just been downed by a silent SA-19, I have a question about its optical guidance system. How effective is it at night? I was rolling in on the target then out of nowhere my right wing blew off and my pilot got shredded by shrapnel. Debrief says it was an SA-19. No launch warning on my RWR, so apparently it was guided onto my jet optically in the dark...

 

probably just the all seeing AI being the all seeing AI.

[Eihort]

The ranging radar on the SA-13 is a continuous wave and therefore will trip your RWR as that's a very large and steady signal and very directional.

 

The command links between missiles while detectable, aren't discernible as to *which* particular aircraft the missile they're guiding goes to. Giving a pilot too much information is just as bad as not enough. You don't want an entire strike package and escorts and SEAD etc. to all flip out when 1 missile is launched at 1 aircraft, everyone thinking it's headed for them. Not to mention this is really easy to use as a decoy IRL with stationary emitters. Effectively, the designers of the RWRs intentionally ignore these signals to prevent pilot information saturation.

 

This is one of the reasons the SA-19 is so effective, is that if you can passively (via optical) get az, el, and range close enough to generate a track, the only warning you're going to have is the missile launch itself to key off of.

[Tj1376]

The ranging radar on the SA-13 is a continuous wave and therefore will trip your RWR as that's a very large and steady signal and very directional.

 

The command links between missiles while detectable, aren't discernible as to *which* particular aircraft the missile they're guiding goes to. Giving a pilot too much information is just as bad as not enough. You don't want an entire strike package and escorts and SEAD etc. to all flip out when 1 missile is launched at 1 aircraft, everyone thinking it's headed for them. Not to mention this is really easy to use as a decoy IRL with stationary emitters. Effectively, the designers of the RWRs intentionally ignore these signals to prevent pilot information saturation.

 

This is one of the reasons the SA-19 is so effective, is that if you can passively (via optical) get az, el, and range close enough to generate a track, the only warning you're going to have is the missile launch itself to key off of.

 

 

 

Do you get MWS when a 19 fires at you?

 

This was a super old thread, I haven’t tried in the last few months. Curious if anyone else has.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David OC]

Having just been downed by a silent SA-19, I have a question about its optical guidance system. How effective is it at night? I was rolling in on the target then out of nowhere my right wing blew off and my pilot got shredded by shrapnel. Debrief says it was an SA-19. No launch warning on my RWR, so apparently it was guided onto my jet optically in the dark...

 

Some great info can be found here Nealius.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-96K6-Pantsir-2K22-Tunguska.html

 

"The immediate operational imperative for the PVO-SV was to defeat the then new A-10A Thunderbolt, and US Army helicopters firing anti-armour missiles"

 

"The electro-optical tracking system includes a longwave (8 - 14 μm band) thermal imager for target acquisition and tracking, and a dual band short (3 - 5 μm) / midwave (0.6 -1.1. μm) IR tracker for angular measurement of the missile beacon."

 

"The missile designs are all derivatives of the two stage command link guided 9M311 weapon. This is a 42 kg launch weight missile, with a low smoke motor"

 

Do you get MWS when a 19 fires at you?

 

This was a super old thread, I haven’t tried in the last few months. Curious if anyone else has.

 

TJ

 

The F/A-18 has no MLWS (Missile Launch Warning System). You need the A-10 for that system.

Edited January 27, 2019 by David OC

[Tj1376]

SA-19 no MWS or lock on warning?

 

Some great info can be found here Nealius.

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-96K6-Pantsir-2K22-Tunguska.html

 

"The immediate operational imperative for the PVO-SV was to defeat the then new A-10A Thunderbolt, and US Army helicopters firing anti-armour missiles"

 

"The electro-optical tracking system includes a longwave (8 - 14 μm band) thermal imager for target acquisition and tracking, and a dual band short (3 - 5 μm) / midwave (0.6 -1.1. μm) IR tracker for angular measurement of the missile beacon."

 

"The missile designs are all derivatives of the two stage command link guided 9M311 weapon. This is a 42 kg launch weight missile, with a low smoke motor"

 

 

 

The F/A-18 has no MLWS (Missile Launch Warning System). You need the A-10 for that system.

 

I’ve been launched on plenty of times, almost always receive the launch warning in the f18. What actually started this thread is that I’d get the launch warning with the sa13 but not the sa19.

 

Maybe it’s not technically called MLWS, but it definitely gets your attention.

 

Edit: that was way cool reading. Thanks.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deano87]

Maybe it’s not technically called MLWS, but it definitely gets your attention.

 

Any launch warnings you’re getting in the Hornet are from the RWR recieving different radar data from whatever is locking you up indicating that it’s swapped from tracking you to guiding the missile. This works very differently to a MLWS system like the A-10 and M2000 have. These use various (usually optical) sensors to “see” a missile launch happening around you and warn you of it. These will warn you of IR guided missiles which otherwise won’t show up at all on your RWR. The F-18 doesn’t have a MLWS system, your MLWS is your mk1 Eyeball, you should be aware of this distinction and the limitations of the F-18 and adjust your flying accordingly.