Last Ditch Maneuvers

[Igor4U]

Despite your best Max Performance Turn, the Bandit is able to pull Lead and bring his Guns to Bear. You have only a Split Second to Live or Die. Will you be coming home for Supper, or standing in Line at the Pearly Gates? Only a supreme last ditch maneuver will do - hope you have one up your sleeve ready to go.

 

I've been re-watching the History Channel's Military Aviation Documentary Series "Dogfights'. I've come across two Aerial Engagements where the targeted Aircraft uses a rather unconventional (IMHO) Last Ditch Maneuver to evade impending Death or Destruction. Here are the Two engagements:

 

 

Dogfights P-51 Mustang (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 10:00)

 

Date: 2-Nov-1944

Pilot: Lt Col (then Capt) Donald Bryan

Engagement: P-51D vs Me-109

Scenario: P-51 in a Hard Left Turn with Me-109 approaching Guns Solution

Last Ditch Maneuver: Snap Full Aft Stick - Full Bottom Rudder - Full Forward Stick - then Neutralize Stick

 

 

The Last Gunfighter (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 32:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXNEiMYExY

 

Date: 14-Dec-1967

Pilot: Richard Schaffert

Engagement: F-8 Crusader vs MiG-17

Scenario: F-8 in a Hard Left Turn (get Bounced) with MiG-17s on his tail firing Guns/Cannon

Last Ditch Maneuver: Agressive Pitch Down Forward Stick - Full Bottom Rudder

 

 

MiG Killers of the USS Midway (Last Ditch Maneuver - Watch at 30:00)

 

Date: 23-May-1972 Vietnam

Pilot: Caot (then LtCmdr) Ron 'Mugs' McKeown

Engagement: USN F-4 Phanton vs MiG-17

Scenario: F-4 tracking MiG-17 for a Heater Shot when it gets bounced from behind by MiG-17 left 8 o'Clock in Guns Range

Last Ditch Maneuver: Back Flip (Snappy Departure from Controlled Flight): Full Forward Stick & Buttom Rudder, follwed by Full Aft Stick & Top Rudder, Unload and F-4 Recovers, MiG-17 forced out in Front

 

All of these Aircraft had conventional Flight Controls (with Pilot in Charge) - I'm wondering if modern Aircraft with Flight Control Computers and Fly-by-Wire Systems would respond accordingly by letting the Pilot fly (nearly) Out-of-Control, or at least past the normal Aircraft Control Limits ?

 

 

What are your tried and true (or trial and error) Last Ditch Maneuvers ? Or aint ya Tellin.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Igor4U
additionadd

[EagleFox]

Biggest bullshit show ever made.

[RED]

You perform a gun defense to be a difficult target to hit. Fancy maneuvers won't help you too much. You have to move out of plane.

 

How to do a "Guns D" is e.g. described by CNATRA:

[Mars Exulte]

I'm an expert at performing variations of hammerhead. In order for a hammerhead to be successful requires an overeager opponent who is unaware of his aircraft's limitations.It also requires he be dangerously close, so is truly a last ditch maneuver. A misjudged attempt will result in setting yourself up for a kill shot.

 

Scenario A : Enemy is energy superior or too eager

At the last moment you go directly vertical, chopping throttle, deploying brakes and or flaps (flaps help maintain controllability) and maneuvering gently to avoid being run over as the enemy overshoots. If you keep track of him, it is often possible to roll and pursue possibly even taking a snapshot.

 

Scenario B : Enemy is energy inferior, but stupid enough to follow anyway

Go vertical, enemy follows, stalls out first, you flip and either pursue or, more often, take a snap shot while he's floundering.

 

While often performed vertically, they don't have to be, I've dome similar stuff horizontally, but it is even more imperative the conditions are precisely right.

 

A good pilot (top 20%) will never get close enough for you to get him with something this obvious, trying to is nearly guaranteed to get you killed. It's almost exclusively used against noobs and mediocre pilots. In order for it to work, your opponent has to set himself up so completely that by the time he realises he's closing on you it's already too late.

Edited September 14, 2018 by zhukov032186

[Baco]

Biggest bullshit show ever made.

 

What he said ;)

 

+1

[Igor4U]

Curious - How Come ?

 

'EagleFox' said: "Biggest bullshit show ever made."

 

'Baco' siad: "What he said +1 "

 

=====================================================================

 

I never knew that Military Aviation Enthusiasts considered the TV Series 'Dogfights' a Piece of Crapola.

 

'Dogfights' is presented sort of documentary style with interviews of the actual combatants wherever possible. I would think this would lend credibility to the Simulated/Animated Re-Creations; although I do think the Animations tend to be over-simplified and cartoonish.

 

Just Curious about why you Fellers thinks 'Dogfights' is so Bogus ?

 

 

 

PS: Back to the original Topic; I found this:

 

LAST-DITCH MANEUVERS

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1222/Last-Ditch-Maneuvers-44.htm

[Mars Exulte]

History channel in general is bogus. History as a loose theme. I mean, it's the same channel that airs shit like Ancient Aliens. Nuff said. The only thing less reliable than Wikipedia is something somebody saw on History Channel. It also tends to be excessively pro-'Murica.

 

Case and point, they compared the Apache Longbow and Hind, declaring the Hind inferior and poorly built and as their primary proof they offered that the Hinds had been withdrawn from Afghanistan due to large numbers of them chopping off their own tails. While technically possible, I've never seen any reference to a Hind being lost in such a matter much less on a scale that would result in being withdrawn from an AO over it. Logically if it was THAT severe they wouldn't fly them.

 

Point is, a great deal of what's on THC is bs, and nothing on it is vetted. Not EVERYTHING obviously, but it's not a reliable source for anything.

[Nooch]

This show has great graphics and storytelling but tends to exagerate things quite a bit...

[probad]

op, you're perpetuating the hollywood myth that somehow fbw negates the unpredictability of human decision making

 

when it comes down to it there is one thing that gets you out of the line of fire and that's geometry. the fundamental goal of flying aids is to keep you moving so you can continue to create/solve geometric problems, and keeping them around will help keep you alive far longer than without.

[TLTeo]

op, you're perpetuating the hollywood myth that somehow fbw negates the unpredictability of human decision making

 

when it comes down to it there is one thing that gets you out of the line of fire and that's geometry. the fundamental goal of flying aids is to keep you moving so you can continue to create/solve geometric problems, and keeping them around will help keep you alive far longer than without.

 

 

Alternatively, you can let him close and hit the breaks :P

[David OC]

 

Scenario A : Enemy is energy superior or too eager

At the last moment you go directly vertical, chopping throttle, deploying brakes and or flaps (flaps help maintain controllability) and maneuvering gently to avoid being run over as the enemy overshoots. If you keep track of him, it is often possible to roll and pursue possibly even taking a snapshot.

 

While often performed vertically, they don't have to be, I've dome similar stuff horizontally, but it is even more imperative the conditions are precisely right.

 

A good pilot (top 20%) will never get close enough for you to get him with something this obvious, trying to is nearly guaranteed to get you killed. It's almost exclusively used against noobs and mediocre pilots. In order for it to work, your opponent has to set himself up so completely that by the time he realises he's closing on you it's already too late.

 

Alternatively, you can let him close and hit the breaks :P

 

This is how this is done with style for real....Ape does explain how to try and fool someone into it with this tactic (Watch the slight positioning). Many good tactics here

 

[RShackleford]

"Last ditch" is what you call a maneuver to maximize the distance between a missile homing on you so that best case you have minor damage to the jet and worse case you survive enough to eject. Seems that the show is showing different types of jinks. I would not recommend trying these in DCS because high AoA performance is still not well modeled.