"Cobra-Resistant" MiG-29?

[thrustvector]

they are not as "pronounced cobra manoeuvres as the 27 are they in the vids

[Alfa]

I thought there is only one Mig-29 OVT.

 

There is(or was). Its the sixth and final MiG-29M prototype(no. 156) from 1991.

 

Not only does it have TVC, it has a full FBW.

 

Yes, but while the TVC engines are a "back-fit", the aircraft has always had FBW.

 

The MiG-29M(9.15) and MiG-29K(9.31) prototypes from the eighties had FBW control systems from day one.

[mvsgas]

So you guys need a FBW Mig-29 to do the maneuver then?

What versions was 315 blue and 304 Blue?

Or is it done at a different speed on the Mig-29?

 

.....lol So many pages about a maneuver :D, and excuse to learn more about the Mig-29 and it many versions I guess.

Edited October 15, 2018 by mvsgas

[Ironhand]

Just a little observation... Even with the pitch damper turned off, the MiG-29 is really resistant to the Cobra maneuver... Anyone else noticing that?

I can get a good snappy pitch-up at around 400-450 km/h, but even yanking the stick back all the way, it 'quits' at about 45 degrees AoA or a bit more. There isn't a sharp snap to vertical (90 deg. AoA or more) like there is with the Flanker.

 

 

Is this right?

 

 

AD

FWIW, that "bit more" is 68°. Or that's as far as I can get it, anyway. It's enough to be impressive, especially if you don't have a Flanker flying alongside for comparitive purposes.

MiG-29 -Cobra-Views.trk

[Alfa]

So you guys need a FBW Mig-29 to do the maneuver then?

 

Aside from FBW control system, the MiG-29M(and -K) prototypes were completely different aircraft - new airframe, wings, engines etc. and had completely different flight characteristics.

 

I don't know to what extend it would be possible to do a cobra maneuver(of sorts) in a "baseline MiG-29", but I have seen a MiG-29K(no. 312) do one - i.e. without TVC engines.

 

What versions was 315 blue and 304 Blue?

 

I think the 315 is a 9.12 with wing tank modification(used for travelling to airshows) and that the 304 is a MiG-29UB.

[mvsgas]

FWIW, that "bit more" is 68°. Or that's as far as I can get it, anyway. It's enough to be impressive, especially if you don't have a Flanker flying alongside for comparitive purposes.

 

I tried it, I don't think you need the damper off

 

[ATTACH]196019[/ATTACH]

[Ironhand]

I tried it, I don't think you need the damper off

 

[ATTACH]196019[/ATTACH]

Hmmm...with the damper on, I couldn't get past 60°. You're just a much better pilot. :)

[mvsgas]

Highly doubt that and you know better :D, did you try holding the damper override? I think the key is Y

[mvsgas]

Aside from FBW control system, the MiG-29M(and -K) prototypes were completely different aircraft - new airframe, wings, engines etc. and had completely different flight characteristics.

 

I don't know to what extend it would be possible to do a cobra maneuver(of sorts) in a "baseline MiG-29", but I have seen a MiG-29K(no. 312) do one - i.e. without TVC engines.

 

 

 

I think the 315 is a 9.12 with wing tank modification(used for travelling to airshows) and that the 304 is a MiG-29UB.

 

I had a book that broke all this down and I can't remember what I did with it. It mention all the versions, how many where built and what country used them. I need to find that when I get out of work. 9.1 to 9.11 where prototypes? I think is was 9.8 the first one with the avionics package but not radar. 9.12 the first production. Was the U, 9.17?

 

There is the A, the S, G, U, UB, M (Mig-33), SM, SME, SM2, OVT, K, Mig-35...I need to find that book.

[GGTharos]

That's because they're not cobra maneuvers.

 

they are not as "pronounced cobra manoeuvres as the 27 are they in the vids

[Ironhand]

Highly doubt that and you know better :D, did you try holding the damper override? I think the key is Y

Yes to the "Y" key. One difference is that you were in an "A" while I was in an "S", both fully fuelled. So I was a bit heavier but don't think that was the difference, since I tried it with less fuel prior to making my track.

[Alfa]

I had a book that broke all this down and I can't remember what I did with it. It mention all the versions, how many where built and what country used them. I need to find that when I get out of work. 9.1 to 9.11 where prototypes? I think is was 9.8 the first one with the avionics package but not radar. 9.12 the first production.

 

I don't know anything about the prototypes of the initial MiG-29, so I cannot help you there :) . But yes the 9.12 is the first production version(Fulcrum A) - known in the sim as "MiG-29A".

 

Was the U, 9.17?

 

No the MiG-29UB is 9.51. The first version of the MiG-29SMT is the 9.17 - current SMT version is 9.19.

 

There is the A, the S, G, U, UB, M (Mig-33), SM, SME, SM2, OVT, K, Mig-35...I need to find that book.

 

Ah not quite mvsgas :)

 

Baseline version and upgrades:

 

- MiG-29 (9.12) - exists in a Soviet version and two export ones(one for Warsaw pact and one for others)

- MiG-29UB (9.51) - two-seat combat trainer without radar.

- MiG-29 (9.13) - upgraded with ECM and wing drop tank ability and other minor improvements.

- MiG-29S (9.13S) - same as above, but with upgraded radar(N019M)/R-77 compatibility

- MiG-29SM (9.13M) - further upgrade of the above with guided a2g weapons.

- MiG-29SMT (9.17) - initial SMT - more internal fuel, IFR capability, new cockpit etc.

- MiG-29SMT (9.18 ) - SMT (budget) version based on 9.12 airframe

- MiG-29SMT (9.19) - current SMT version used by the RuAF.

- MiG-29UPG (9.20) - for IAF - most up-to-date upgrade with Zhuk-M radar, new HUD etc.

 

Advanced versions:

 

- MiG-29M (9.15) - new multirole variant - just about everything changed as compared with 9.12

- MiG-29K (9.31) - carrier version of the above with further features - IFR probe, new NAV system etc.

- MiG-29K (9.41) - new further developed carrier version for India(initially).

- MiG-29KUB (9.47) - two seat combat trainer of the above.

- MiG-29M1 - new single seat land based version - no IFR probe.

- MiG-29M2 - two seat combat trainer of the above.

- MiG-35 - uber advanced version of the above(AESA radar, MLWS etc) - also comes in two-seat version.

 

Just a quick rundown of the ones I can think of - there are also some more or less official ones like the "MiG-29G" where the operators have modified/upgraded baseline MiG-29s with new equipment. The "OVT" is a one-off tech demonstrator(TVC) which, like I mentioned earlier, is based on the last 9.15 prototype....so barely a version in its own right.

[Top Jockey]

confrontational? that's right. i am absolutely going to confront the perpetuation of misinformation.

 

having dampers doesnt mean anything. lots of aircraft that arent relaxed stability have dampers. f-14 has dampers, f-5 has dampers.

mig-29 is not relaxed stability aircraft, it doesn't have any system that requires intervention between pilot and controls for the maintenance of stability. the su-27 does, it has asc.

the cobra-capable mig-29ovt has thrust vectoring, because that's the only way it can produce capability that the airframe does not inherently possess.

our mig-29a/s does not have tvc, and it doesnt have or need asc.

 

nobody credible remembers seeing a mig-29 performing a cobra in 1988. a lot of people remember seeing a flanker performing a cobra in 1989. one would think that if the mig-29 demonstrated a cobra a full year before the flanker did, that it would actually be more notable than the famous 1989 flanker routine.

 

backpedallers itt

 

Real life Mig 29 cobra!

 

 

 

So, where do we stand ?

 

Can or can not the Fulcrum do the cobra ?

[Ironhand]

So, where do we stand ?

 

Can or can not the Fulcrum do the cobra ?

 

Ours cannot. More modern versions can.

[GGTharos]

Yes and no. Depends on which version of the MiG-29 you're talking about :)

[antagonist]

So, where do we stand ?

 

Can or can not the Fulcrum do the cobra ?

 

But which versions of the MiG-29 existed and were flown at airshows back in 1991?

[Top Jockey]

Ours cannot. More modern versions can.

 

Yes and no. Depends on which version of the MiG-29 you're talking about :)

 

But which versions of the MiG-29 existed and were flown at airshows back in 1991?

 

Ok then, which version is the one in the video at post #15 by @Rushx?

 

edit:

 

(Eitherway this really is just mere curiosity - as for me with the actual PFM for the Fulcrum, we have reached a true millestone at this sim.)

Edited October 15, 2018 by Top Jockey

[Toriy]

As I heard for Su-27's the max alpha during Cobra is 110-120 degr. For MiG-29's - 80.

But for both of them in Russia only selected test pilots are allowed to demonstrate this regime. Because this regime is not a "determined" one you can learn repeating body movements of your instructor. Cobra is different every time time depending on fuel weight, side movements and so on. Every time Cobra is different for the same plane and pilot.

 

For a MIG-29 a typical Cobra looks like here:

 

[jacobs]

As I heard for Su-27's the max alpha during Cobra is 110-120 degr. For MiG-29's - 80.

But for both of them in Russia only selected test pilots are allowed to demonstrate this regime. Because this regime is not a "determined" one you can learn repeating body movements of your instructor. Cobra is different every time time depending on fuel weight, side movements and so on. Every time Cobra is different for the same plane and pilot.

 

For a MIG-29 a typical Cobra looks like here:

 

 

The question is, which flavor of Mig-29 is that one?

[Shadow KT]

The A can still do a "cobra". It is not as expressed as the flanker one, but they still call it a "cobra". I've seen it at an airshow too.

 

Even in the newsletter announcing the 29 PFM it is said as a key feature the ability to perform the maneuver (unless they have edited the post since)

[Goa]

Just a little observation... Even with the pitch damper turned off, the MiG-29 is really resistant to the Cobra maneuver... Anyone else noticing that?

I can get a good snappy pitch-up at around 400-450 km/h, but even yanking the stick back all the way, it 'quits' at about 45 degrees AoA or a bit more. There isn't a sharp snap to vertical (90 deg. AoA or more) like there is with the Flanker.

 

 

Is this right?

 

 

AD

 

hi how do you switch off pitch damper ???

[Top Jockey]

hi how do you switch off pitch damper ???

 

Keys: LAlt +9, pressed for at least 3 seconds.

 

At the cockpit will be an audio warning and the red advisory light comes on.

[umkhunto]

I hope it's not too resistant. The cobra is the perfect moment to score a guns kill on a MiG or Su driver that's trying to pick up girls.

[mvsgas]

I don't know anything about the prototypes of the initial MiG-29, so I cannot help you there :) . But yes the 9.12 is the first production version(Fulcrum A) - known in the sim as "MiG-29A".

 

 

 

No the MiG-29UB is 9.51. The first version of the MiG-29SMT is the 9.17 - current SMT version is 9.19.

 

 

 

Ah not quite mvsgas :)

 

Baseline version and upgrades:

 

- MiG-29 (9.12) - exists in a Soviet version and two export ones(one for Warsaw pact and one for others)

- MiG-29UB (9.51) - two-seat combat trainer without radar.

- MiG-29 (9.13) - upgraded with ECM and wing drop tank ability and other minor improvements.

- MiG-29S (9.13S) - same as above, but with upgraded radar(N019M)/R-77 compatibility

- MiG-29SM (9.13M) - further upgrade of the above with guided a2g weapons.

- MiG-29SMT (9.17) - initial SMT - more internal fuel, IFR capability, new cockpit etc.

- MiG-29SMT (9.18 ) - SMT (budget) version based on 9.12 airframe

- MiG-29SMT (9.19) - current SMT version used by the RuAF.

- MiG-29UPG (9.20) - for IAF - most up-to-date upgrade with Zhuk-M radar, new HUD etc.

 

Advanced versions:

 

- MiG-29M (9.15) - new multirole variant - just about everything changed as compared with 9.12

- MiG-29K (9.31) - carrier version of the above with further features - IFR probe, new NAV system etc.

- MiG-29K (9.41) - new further developed carrier version for India(initially).

- MiG-29KUB (9.47) - two seat combat trainer of the above.

- MiG-29M1 - new single seat land based version - no IFR probe.

- MiG-29M2 - two seat combat trainer of the above.

- MiG-35 - uber advanced version of the above(AESA radar, MLWS etc) - also comes in two-seat version.

 

Just a quick rundown of the ones I can think of - there are also some more or less official ones like the "MiG-29G" where the operators have modified/upgraded baseline MiG-29s with new equipment. The "OVT" is a one-off tech demonstrator(TVC) which, like I mentioned earlier, is based on the last 9.15 prototype....so barely a version in its own right.

And they say the F-16 is complicated designation system :D

Alfa, how about the sub-variants?

There is a 9.12A and a 9.12B right?

SE, 9.13 or 9.13s export version?

Peru's SMT, is it base on the 9.19?

Isn't the 9.41 the KR and 9.47 the KUBR?

Another one off aircraft that was interesting was the Sniper Mig-29.

 

https://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/MiG-29

http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-variants/

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_Mikoyan_MiG-29_operators.html

[Alfa]

But which versions of the MiG-29 existed and were flown at airshows back in 1991?

 

Quite a few existed - MiG-29(9.12), MiG-29(9.13), MiG-29M(9.15) and MiG-29K(9.31), but whether they were flown at airshows in 1991 is another question - I know that MiG-29M(9.15) no. 156 flew at Farnborough in 1992.