Easy Refuel Option

[derammo]

unlimited fuel is a no go for me. takes out too many good reasons to play a combat sim.

 

 

and: we have this option already. no(!) server uses it for good reasons.

 

Nobody asked for unlimited fuel. It was just a straw man presented by those who are against easy refueling. So let's not focus on that.

 

The flying up to a tanker and then using a radio menu option to auto refuel would be what I would like. I would like to be able to play in a multi player mission with people who ARE able to AAR and want to do so manually. You'd still have to budget your fuel, just like those who are able to AAR manually. Let everyone do it in whatever way is comfortable and fun for them, without giving a huge time advantage to people who use the automatic option. If you wanted to give prestige to manual AAR players, assign a MP score value to each 1000lbs of fuel you get from a tanker.

 

Hard core servers that don't allow auto startups and other cheats/simplifications could just disable this feature.

[whaaw]

hmm F18 is already Easy refueling, compared to other modules.

you can literally activate BALT after connection trim a little bit to left or right and then activate ATC and go afk for 5minutes. When you come back your done refueling. I cant imagine how this could be esier without teleporting the fuel into your jet.

[DD_Fenrir]

I would suggest a box, equivalent to the limits of travel of the drogue/boom, which upon entering a staying within for say 2 seconds the player a/c starts refuelling at the same rate as another player who actually connects does.

 

Ergo it still requires some skill to position the a/c within the refuel box and maintain that formation, but would assist newer players in developing their formation flying skills - an absolute requisite to tanking - and hence be more of a stepping stone towards actual connection refeulling than is available now.

 

A similar tech is already enabled for the collection of cargo loads via hover in the Huey/Mi-8 - maybe it could be modified for easy refuel option?

[Guppy]

I'd call the refuel we have today as easy. Supposedly they are working on more realistic refueling, turbulence, etc. Especially when the chute just sort of juts over to make contact when you're "close enough"

 

Curious what this thread/request will turn into when we have the more difficult option enabled. ha

[DD_Fenrir]

Curious what this thread/request will turn into when we have the more difficult option enabled. ha

 

Probably make it even more likely that easier refuel option be enacted to assist those new to the experience in making achievable progress towards the end goal of full on connection a2a refuelling.

[Revelation]

Probably make it even more likely that easier refuel option be enacted to assist those new to the experience in making achievable progress towards the end goal of full on connection a2a refuelling.

 

Or, just maybe, people practice until they get it.

[Guppy]

Probably make it even more likely that easier refuel option be enacted to assist those new to the experience in making achievable progress towards the end goal of full on connection a2a refuelling.

 

Probably should just practice formation flying for a bit; get used to small corrections/stabilization. It takes time and practice. Along with carrier landings and other aspects of flight.

[Tippis]

Or, just maybe, people practice until they get it.

Or, just maybe, people should be given tools to let them practice. Same as for the other aspects of flight.

[Revelation]

Tools? An easy refuel option is not a "tool." It is a handicap and you will do yourself a disservice if you ever want to disable that feature later on.

 

 

I've spent hours helping another virtual aviator learn how to perform AAR using an xBox controller. Excuses are invalid.

[Exorcet]

Probably should just practice formation flying for a bit; get used to small corrections/stabilization. It takes time and practice. Along with carrier landings and other aspects of flight.

It's not one or the other though. You can practice unassisted while also making use of the assist.

 

 

As things are now if a player can't AAR, they have no reason to add AAR in their missions. While if an assist helps them AAR, they might want to add it in missions which could help encourage them to practice.

[Tippis]

Tools? An easy refuel option is not a "tool."

Sure it is, same as the easy starts, easy landings, easy ream and refuel, easy repairs – to say nothing of the myriad of illustration, highlighting, and marking options available in the game.

 

Just like those, it entices players to try something and lets them get an eye for what they're expected to do. It also enables actual learning, rather than the useless and pointless frustration of failure without any feedback on what was done correctly and not.

 

I've spent hours helping another virtual aviator learn how to perform AAR using an xBox controller. Excuses are invalid.

Pointless elitism is invalid; excuses are not. Doubly so when that elitism only serves to exclude more people because it assumes conditions that are far from universal. At that point, it moves beyond invalid and careens straight in the realm of being outright toxic.

[shagrat]

hmm F18 is already Easy refueling, compared to other modules.

you can literally activate BALT after connection trim a little bit to left or right and then activate ATC and go afk for 5minutes. When you come back your done refueling. I cant imagine how this could be esier without teleporting the fuel into your jet.

Try the AV-8B or F-14B for a change, or have the Tanker fly short legs on the racetrack...

[Revelation]

Sure it is, same as the easy starts, easy landings, easy ream and refuel, easy repairs –

Auto-start should not exist. There are no easy landings or easy rearms. Your point is invalid.

 

Just like those, it entices players to try something and lets them get an eye for what they're expected to do. It also enables actual learning, rather than the useless and pointless frustration of failure without any feedback on what was done correctly and not.

No, it doesn't. Auto-start does not teach you how to properly start a module. Your point is invalid.

 

 

Pointless elitism is invalid; excuses are not.

You must not know what elitism is. Stating that I helped someone learn how to AAR using an xBox controller is not elitism. Keep making excuses in life, see how far you make it. Better yet ED should start giving out participation "trophies."

 

Doubly so when that elitism only serves to exclude more people because it assumes conditions that are far from universal. At that point, it moves beyond invalid and careens straight in the realm of being outright toxic.

Again, you are using that word incorrectly. If someone can learn to AAR with an xBox controller you have no excuse why you can't learn with a joystick. It simply takes time and patience.

 

Drop the BS.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Revelation

[Guppy]

It's not one or the other though. You can practice unassisted while also making use of the assist.

 

 

As things are now if a player can't AAR, they have no reason to add AAR in their missions. While if an assist helps them AAR, they might want to add it in missions which could help encourage them to practice.

 

If you don't know how to lock onto a target and fire a missile you cannot have combat related missions. How do you get over this? Read/watch youtube/practice. It's no different with AAR.

 

You're assuming the this "assist" or "easy" refuel option is going to make the player eventually able to tackle the "real" version. It's not. They're going to get used to the easy version and still be unable to do the real version because of the same exact struggles they experienced before. It's practicing the fundamentals that will get folks over the hump. IE: formation flying, visual cues, etc.

 

If you put me on a bike with training wheels I still don't know how to balance without the training wheels. I still need someone to hold me until I learn. the only things training wheels teach me is that I'm not going to fall off the bike and I can bike with others. But once they're removed I still havent learned how to balance.

[shagrat]

Or, just maybe, people practice until they get it.

Ok, I did not want to bring this up, but I guess I need to.

Recently my mother has been diagnosed with cancer. I am the only child and it means I have no f...ing time "to practice". I don't care what some ultra realism nerds think about what is easy or not, not does it provide anything for my personal experience in DCS. So out of utterly egoistic reasons, I love to have this option ( and it is important to make it an option, not to break full real gameplay) and be able to use the very limited time of 1-2 hours flying one day in a week, to do something more fun, than to practice AAR just so some guys here can feel fine in their wet pants.

I use auto startup if I need to safe some time, I use the Huey autopilot "cheat" when I need to look at the map and I don't care if it is realistic or not, it is a practical help for me to make the most out of the limited time I can relax and free my mind with DCS before I need to take care of real life, so who are you guys, to deny me a couple of hours and a positive experience, especially if it does not take away anything from your experience?

Sorry, but this does not compute.

Edited May 22, 2019 by shagrat

[shagrat]

Sure it is, same as the easy starts, easy landings, easy ream and refuel, easy repairs – Auto-start should not exist. There are no easy landings or easy rearms. Your point is invalid.

No, it doesn't. Auto-start does not teach you how to properly start a module. Your point is invalid.

 

You must not know what elitism is. Stating that I helped someone learn how to AAR using an xBox controller is not elitism. Keep making excuses in life, see how far you make it. Better yet ED should start giving out participation "trophies."

 

Again, you are using that word incorrectly. If someone can learn to AAR with an xBox controller you have no excuse why you can't learn with a joystick. It simply takes time and patience.

 

Drop the BS.

It is my decision if I need to, or even want to learn to start up manually! Not yours. I personally like to do it, as well, as bringing the plane back and shut it down. But I would never feel entitled to demand(!) from others, that they have to do it my way.

That is actually BS.

You are not my mom, neither my boss, nor in any position to tell me or anyone else, how to enjoy their favorite sim... :dunno:

[Tippis]

Auto-start should not exist. There are no easy landings or easy rearms. Your point is invalid.

All rearms are easy, and there are lots of options to make landings easier than they really should be. Your opinion about a tool that exists — for very good reasons — to help people with start-ups does not make my point invalid, especially not when your arguments for this supposed invalidity are factually wrong.

 

No, it doesn't. Auto-start does not teach you how to properly start a module.

Wrong on both accounts. Your argument from ignorance does not make my point invalid.

 

You must not know what elitism is.

Asserting that a helpful tool should not exist without providing a reason for it; asserting that people should just practice (but refusing to give them the tools to do so); asserting that there are no valid reasons for wanting to not strictly adhere to your flavour of pedagogy; refusing to accept that your conditions are not universal and effectively telling people that they're can just get lost if those conditions don't apply to them — all of that is elitism.

 

Instantly becoming hostile when something other than your doctrine is suggested does not exactly wash that image away either…

 

If someone can learn to AAR with an xBox controller

…then maybe that's because someone was willing to spend a lot of time teaching them to use suboptimal controllers. That is not an assumption that can be generalised, and definitely not a reason not to give people other tools to learn.
Edited May 22, 2019 by Tippis

[Revelation]

Ok, I did not want to bring this up, but I guess I need to.

No you didn't. We all have real-world issues that we deal with, you're not special.

 

I don't care what some ultra realism nerds think about what is easy or not, not does it provide anything for my personal experience in DCS.

See how you have to resort to defamation and name-calling to try and validate your position.... Keep trying.

 

and be able to use the very limited time of 1-2 hours flying one day in a week, to do something more fun, than to practice AAR just so some guys here can feel fine in their wet pants.

If you only have 1-2 hours of flying, you don't need to practice AAR at all. Yeah, I went there as you cannot have a respectable conversation with other forum posters.

 

to deny me a couple of hours and a positive experience, especially if it does not take away anything from your experience?

Sorry, but this does not compute.

"Positive experience." That's a good one. I find joy in mastering difficult tasks. Being able to finally get connected and stay connected in a new module is a "positive experience."

 

What you do and what you enjoy is entirely on you. Some people want an easy refuel option, cool have at it. Don't try to justify the option as anything other than a lack of commitment to learn how to do it properly. I don't care what your justification is, the facts remain.

 

Quit taking offense to somebody who has a different opinion as you.

[Tippis]

Some people want an easy refuel option, cool have at it.

Well, there you go. You don't actually disagree with this option being in the game. :thumbup:

 

Quit taking offense to somebody who has a different opinion as you.

You really should go back and read your own posts…

Edited May 22, 2019 by Tippis

[Revelation]

All rearms are easy,

No. all rearms are the core features of the game, there are no other options. Your point is yet again invalid. If ED came out with a more authentic experience with rearming on the ground I would chose to use it.

 

and there are lots of options to make landings easier than they really should be.

No there are not.

 

Wrong on both accounts. Your argument from ignorance does not make my point invalid.

 

Asserting that a helpful tool should not exist without providing a reason for it; asserting that people should just practice (but refusing to give them the tools to do so); asserting that there are no valid reasons for wanting to not strictly adhere to your flavour of pedagogy; refusing to accept that your conditions are not universal and effectively telling people that they're can just get lost if those conditions don't apply to them — all of that is elitism.

 

Incorrect, yet again. Your entire argument is the basis that people use cheats in FPS games, they call them "trainers." They do not train you to do anything. An easy refuel option will not train you to be able to perform AAR - period. You still don't know how to use elitism.

 

Instantly becoming hostile when something other than your doctrine is suggested does not exactly wash that image away either…

Funny, because that is what you did and now you cry fowl when I push back against your nonsense instead of rolling over....

 

definitely not a reason not to give people other tools to learn.

There is a stark difference between easy refuel and a "tool." Easy refuel is not a tool to teach you how to perform AAR. You want to come up with an idea that gives you visual queues or even verbal queues to help you out - great that is a tool. Having the computer perform the function for you is not a tool.

[ThorBrasil]

DCS World can not escape realism. It has to be as real as possible and today, so being in-flight refueling is not a complicated thing to do. You have to practice and be patient.

[Revelation]

Well, there you go. You don't actually disagree with this option being in the game. :thumbup:

Then you should read the whole message, or do you agree with the assertion that people are too lazy to learn how to AAR and simply want a cheat? Cool then we agree... (see what I did there)

 

You really should go back and read your own posts…

 

Yes, let's review my posts.....

 

 

No offense here. Hmmmm..... Strange I simply posted an opinion.

Tools? An easy refuel option is not a "tool." It is a handicap and you will do yourself a disservice if you ever want to disable that feature later on.

 

 

I've spent hours helping another virtual aviator learn how to perform AAR using an xBox controller. Excuses are invalid.

 

 

Or maybe you mean:

Pointless elitism is invalid; excuses are not. Doubly so when that elitism only serves to exclude more people because it assumes conditions that are far from universal. At that point, it moves beyond invalid and careens straight in the realm of being outright toxic.

 

 

in which I responded:

Auto-start should not exist. There are no easy landings or easy rearms. Your point is invalid.

 

 

No, it doesn't. Auto-start does not teach you how to properly start a module. Your point is invalid.

 

 

You must not know what elitism is. Stating that I helped someone learn how to AAR using an xBox controller is not elitism. Keep making excuses in life, see how far you make it. Better yet ED should start giving out participation "trophies."

 

 

Again, you are using that word incorrectly. If someone can learn to AAR with an xBox controller you have no excuse why you can't learn with a joystick. It simply takes time and patience.

 

Drop the BS.

 

 

You see I don't start off attacking people or being disrespectful. You get what you deserve and your post proves the garbage you are pushing.

[shagrat]

No you didn't. We all have real-world issues that we deal with, you're not special.

 

 

 

See how you have to resort to defamation and name-calling to try and validate your position.... Keep trying.

 

 

 

If you only have 1-2 hours of flying, you don't need to practice AAR at all. Yeah, I went there as you cannot have a respectable conversation with other forum posters.

 

 

 

"Positive experience." That's a good one. I find joy in mastering difficult tasks. Being able to finally get connected and stay connected in a new module is a "positive experience."

 

 

 

What you do and what you enjoy is entirely on you. Some people want an easy refuel option, cool have at it. Don't try to justify the option as anything other than a lack of commitment to learn how to do it properly. I don't care what your justification is, the facts remain.

 

 

 

Quit taking offense to somebody who has a different opinion as you.

 

This is a wishlist thread. Somebody wished for an option. A dozen entitled nerds demand to scratch that option because they have a different opinion.

They tell the requesters how they want them to experience DCS and talk a lot about things, the requesters obviously don't care.

As it is an option, not a change, what do you expect? That I cheer "Bravo" to the holy defenders of realism and hardship? Really?

If you can't live with criticism, while criticising others, there way of playing DCS, there skills, mocking their time management and private situation, you may need to hone your social skills a bit...

[shagrat]

No. all rearms are the core features of the game, there are no other options. Your point is yet again invalid. If ED came out with a more authentic experience with rearming on the ground I would chose to use it.

 

 

 

No there are not.

 

 

 

Wrong on both accounts. Your argument from ignorance does not make my point invalid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Incorrect, yet again. Your entire argument is the basis that people use cheats in FPS games, they call them "trainers." They do not train you to do anything. An easy refuel option will not train you to be able to perform AAR - period. You still don't know how to use elitism.

 

 

 

Funny, because that is what you did and now you cry fowl when I push back against your nonsense instead of rolling over....

 

 

 

There is a stark difference between easy refuel and a "tool." Easy refuel is not a tool to teach you how to perform AAR. You want to come up with an idea that gives you visual queues or even verbal queues to help you out - great that is a tool. Having the computer perform the function for you is not a tool.

There is no "incorrect" in personal opinion. Just different opinion.

[Tippis]

No.

Wrong. They're all a simplification. Rearming does not actually work this way.

 

No there are not

Yes there are. You may not be using them because it's not your style to skip over all the (not actually) mandatory bits, or you may simply not know that you can, and not do it for that reason. But yes, you most definitely can make landings a lot easier than they should be if you did everything “accurately”.

 

Incorrect, yet again. Your entire argument is the basis that people use cheats in FPS games, they call them "trainers."

No, my argument is that if people are eased into a difficult subject by layering on more and more complexity and/or detail, then you are giving them the opportunity to actually learn the different components in isolation rather than just heap it all on top of them at once. This enhances learning. It's about as fundamental a process of learning as they come, and a well-established pedagogical concept.

 

Funny, because that is what you did and now you cry fowl when I push back against your nonsense instead of rolling over....

Foul, presumably?

At what point did I become hostile? Can you cite examples?

 

There is a stark difference between easy refuel and a "tool."

Not really, no. They both work to simplify a task. There's some differences in complexity in tools that make them more or less suited for different levels of learning and/or application, of course, but that would apply just as well to easy refuelling. Oh, and your assumption here is that “the computer perform the function for you” is something of your own making, and not something you can actually disqualify the idea for (that would be a strawman).

 

Then you should read the whole message

I did. You ended up saying that “Some people want an easy refuel option, cool have at it.” which means that you don't actually disagree with this option being in the game.

 

Oh, and calling people's opinions “garbage” is the very definition of “taking offense to somebody who has a different opinion as you.” And what were you “pushing back” against when you categorically declared all excuses to be invalid?

Edited May 22, 2019 by Tippis