Silvern Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Lot 20 Hornet has 4 buckets with 30 slots per bucket. That is 60 flares and 60 chaff. In-game 3D model reflects that correctly - however the player aircraft is limited to a maximum of 60 chaff and 30 flares, any more flares than that and you start losing chaff. You can see on the 3D model that flares and chaff are both the same size and shape (cylindrical). Why is there a discrepancy between what is shown and what can actually be carried? Edited January 31, 2019 by Silvern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strikeeagle345 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Great question Strike USLANTCOM.com i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 3090 | Samsung SSD | HP Reverb G2 | VIRPIL Alpha | VIRPIL Blackhawk | HOTAS Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adler Blau Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I also wish to have more ) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancel Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I can only speculate. I have noticed that if you change the values, you get 2 chaff for every 1 flare. It also seems like we drop two flares every click. Might be related, but not sure why. Maybe because two engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Fantastic question, I believe this has been brought to light in the past (and proven to be modeled incorrect currently) but the bug still remains. Curious to hear of ED's perspective. VR Cockpit (link): Custom Throttletek F/A-18C Throttle w/ Hall Sensors + Otto switches | Slaw Device RX Viper Pedals w/ Damper | VPC T-50 Base + 15cm Black Sahaj Extension + TM Hornet or Warthog Grip | Super Warthog Wheel Stand Pro | Steelcase Leap V2 + JetSeat SE VR Rig: Pimax 5K+ | ASUS ROG Strix 1080Ti | Intel i7-9700K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | Corsair H115i RGB Platinum | 32GB Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 | Dell U3415W Curved 3440x1440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strikeeagle345 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I can only speculate. I have noticed that if you change the values, you get 2 chaff for every 1 flare. It also seems like we drop two flares every click. Might be related, but not sure why. Maybe because two engines? the jet is dropping two flares out of the 30. so you get 15 clicks in bypass mode. Still doesn't seem right based on the OP's observations. Strike USLANTCOM.com i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 3090 | Samsung SSD | HP Reverb G2 | VIRPIL Alpha | VIRPIL Blackhawk | HOTAS Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainmaker Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Does the navy use the larger flare cartridges that are only 15 per bucket? Perhaps just a graphic difference over what’s simulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiib Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (30 x 2) + 60 = 120 = the total slots in the picture flare are released in pairs, so you're actually getting 60 flares when the loadout screen says 30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature_1stVFW Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Regardless if flares are dropped in pairs, the jet SHOULD poll every chaff/flare that’s loaded. Don’t know if the F-18 is like that, but the A10 and F16 are. F16 Weapons Loader here. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] MSI MPG X570 Gaming Plus MOBO||Ryzen 9 3900X 12 Core, 24 Thread Processor || MSI GTX 1070Ti 8GB GPU OverClocked || 32GB GSKILL DDR4 RAM @3600 || Samsung 1TB SSD || Samsung 250GB SSD || WD Caviar Black 2TB HDD || WD Caviar Black 1TB HDD || Thermaltake ToughPower GF1 850W PS || Thermaltake Tower || Windows 10 Pro 64bit || Thrustmaster Warthog and Cougar sticks, throttles and MFDs || Saitek Rudder Pedals || Trackir 5 || Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShackleford Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Could be the model is showing an MJU-7 flare but the aircraft is actually using an MJU-10. It is either that or vice versa. I can't remember which is which, but one type of flare takes up twice the space of the other flare, so if the outside model is one flare but the systems in DCS are modeling the larger of the two, that could be the disparity. Just sucks in DCS that it doesn't matter, because every flare is exactly the same. Not that anyone can blame ED, because it's pretty classified what type of flare cocktails work against different missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldur Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Fantastic question, I believe this has been brought to light in the past (and proven to be modeled incorrect currently) but the bug still remains. Curious to hear of ED's perspective. Exactly. That thread though got tagged [NO BUG] because it contained 2 issues, one of which being no bug as per ED - expendables not going unlimited if unlimited weapons is checked - and the other being the flares limited to 30 which has been confirmed being wrong inside that thread. BTW flares are not dropped in pairs if programmed right on the EW page. This is just a bypass mode thing and probably correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySanchez Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Some flares are "single" profile; some are "double" profile. There are many flare variants with different characteristics, but ED only models one type. They chose one that's double-size, hence we get half the number of flares possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvern Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 (30 x 2) + 60 = 120 = the total slots in the picture flare are released in pairs, so you're actually getting 60 flares when the loadout screen says 30 Wrong. Our flares are released in pairs of 2 by default in override mode. That gives you 15 flare drops. 15 x 2 = 30. We still dont get 60 flares. Could be the model is showing an MJU-7 flare but the aircraft is actually using an MJU-10. It is either that or vice versa. I can't remember which is which, but one type of flare takes up twice the space of the other flare, so if the outside model is one flare but the systems in DCS are modeling the larger of the two, that could be the disparity. Correct. MJU-7 takes up two slots - but the DCS Lot 20C does not use MJU-7, as shown by the in-game 3D model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyle Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) This is something that has bugged me for some time now, too. Yes, using the bypass launches 2 of them, but as it stands you're physically launching "4" flares worth of slots, instead of only "2". In the FA-18C.lua line 206, the flares are set to "chargeSz = 2" where as chaff are set to 1. Modifying it to 1 will allow you to hold up to 120 flares just like chaff, which you can then manually release all 120 of them 1 by 1 using a single release profile on the ALE-47. Either the in-game model is incorrect and our latest model of the F/A-18C is for whatever reason stuck using a MJU-7, like the lua says. or they're incorrectly modeling our flares. /shrug Edited February 1, 2019 by Coyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jansgi Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) This is why it is only 30 flares: Tho in the model in the game those look more like M206 flares which only take up one slot. Edited February 2, 2019 by Jansgi Asus ROG Strix X570-E Gaming AMD Ryzen™ 5 5600X AMD Radeon™ RX 6800 XT G.Skill 32GB (2 x 16GB) Trident Z Neo DDR4 3600MHz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapsu Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Some flares are "single" profile; some are "double" profile. There are many flare variants with different characteristics, but ED only models one type. They chose one that's double-size, hence we get half the number of flares possible. That's not true for the F-18. Hornet uses cylindrical countermeasure cartridges and there is only one size for them. However square ones used on F-16, F-15, A-10 etc. have single and douple slot cartridges for flares and since ED models the double ones we got them to Hornet too which just is wrong and unrealistic. Hopefully this will get fixed soon. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] DCS Finland - Finnish DCS community SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvern Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 That's not true for the F-18. Hornet uses cylindrical countermeasure cartridges and there is only one size for them. However square ones used on F-16, F-15, A-10 etc. have single and douple slot cartridges for flares and since ED models the double ones we got them to Hornet too which just is wrong and unrealistic. Hopefully this will get fixed soon. +1 It's clearly a mistake or a bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySanchez Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Cool, thanks for the correction. Confirmed in the Hornet stores loading manual. The ALE-47 in Air Force aircraft uses buckets with rectangular slots and DCS: A-10C suffered from the issue I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deezle Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 I'd like to see this addressed, it's a one character change in the FA-18C.lua file to correct this. Intel 9600K@4.9GHz, Asus Z390, 32GB DDR4, EVGA RTX 3070, Custom Water Cooling, 970 EVO 1TB NVMe 34" UltraWide 3440x1440 Curved Monitor, 21" Touch Screen MFD monitor, TIR5 My Pit Build, VKB Gunfighter Pro w/WH Grip, TMWH Throttle, MFG Crosswinds W/Combat Pedals, Cougar MFDs, Custom A-10C panels, Custom Helo Collective, SimShaker with Transducer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano87 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 +1 Proud owner of: PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring. My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsk Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 In the FA-18C.lua line 206, the flares are set to "chargeSz = 2" where as chaff are set to 1. Modifying it to 1 will allow you to hold up to 120 flares just like chaff, which you can then manually release all 120 of them 1 by 1 using a single release profile on the ALE-47. Sadly we've tried this in Black Tails: changing this line allows you to set 60 chaff & 60 flares in the mission editor ... but when you fly the mission you'll have 60 flares and 0 chaff :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsk Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Hornet should be able to carry 120 flares. The F/A-18C as it is currently modelled in DCS has a maximum of 120 counter measure slots: with chaff taking a single slot, and flares taking 2 slots. This means that the DCS Hornet currently cannot carry more than 60 flares maximum, this is enforced in the mission editor and also in the aircraft itself. However, this is incorrect to the actual aircraft, which is able to carry up to 120 flares. The Hornet (like almost all Navy aircraft) uses cylindrical counter measures, and those that are used with the AN/ALE-47 are all the same size. As such the Hornet should be able to carry up to 120 flares. This is evident from the document: NAVY TRAINING SYSTEM PLAN FOR THE AIRBORNE EXPENDABLE COUNTERMEASURES N78-NTSP-A-50-0109/A Which is an unclassified document (as stated on page I-1 of the document itself) describing Naval counter measures. I won't post a link as the document is newer than 1980, but it is publically available and very easy to find. As that document states (pages I-12 to I-14) the counter measures used with the AN/ALE-47 counter measures system (which the DCS Hornet models) are: Flares: MK46 MOD 1C, MJU-8/B, MJU-8A/B, MJU-27/B and SM-875/ALE (simulated flare) Chaff: RR-129/AL, RR-129A/AL, RR-144/AL, RR-144A/AL As also stated in that document (pages I-9 and I-10) these are all cylindrical cartridges: 5.80 inches in length and 1.42 inches in diameter, i.e. they are all the same size. This agrees with publically available photos of the Hornet showing the counter measures system, which always show uniformly sized cylindrical stores. For example: This also agrees with the model of the Hornet in the game itself, which again shows uniformly sized cylindrical stores: Apologies if this issue is already reported, a search did not reveal a similar bug report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomsk Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Filed as a bug: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=231574 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strikeeagle345 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Filed as a bug: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=231574 and they were merged... Strike USLANTCOM.com i7-9700K OC 5GHz| MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON | 32GB DDR4 3200 | GTX 3090 | Samsung SSD | HP Reverb G2 | VIRPIL Alpha | VIRPIL Blackhawk | HOTAS Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Wags Posted February 4, 2019 ED Team Share Posted February 4, 2019 Thanks for feedback. It turns out that it varies between early and late lots. For a late lot it should indeed be higher than 30. We'll fix it. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt Twitch: wagmatt System: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3729544#post3729544 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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