DCS: F-14 Air to Air Refueling Tutorial

[WindyTX]

Hey chaps just a quick note but you can fly in a straight line with the ball out by counteracting it with wing down. I never trim the rudder for the probe. The GR1 was just too short so they probably needed to .

 

In the sim if you are looking at the tanker and formation flying then you are probably slightly cross controlled but it doesn't really matter for the short period you will be tanking for.

 

 

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[Dangerman]

Hey chaps just a quick note but you can fly in a straight line with the ball out by counteracting it with wing down. I never trim the rudder for the probe. The GR1 was just too short so they probably needed to .

 

In the sim if you are looking at the tanker and formation flying then you are probably slightly cross controlled but it doesn't really matter for the short period you will be tanking for.

 

 

I suppose we did have less keel area... but always found it best to wind in rudder trim to make sure the Junta technique worked as below

 

HUD to locked instead of VV

set standby sight to 55 mils

superimpose budgie over 55 mil depression reticle

turn off standby sight

put the comma in the alt readout into the HDU hole

drive up the comma

first prod every time!... nearly, maybe, sometimes :)

 

did you guys have a magic formula or did you just use the force?

[WindyTX]

We always flew locked unless we were goofing off at low level. Yep just used the force it was easy for us cos the probe was on the correct side.

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[viper2097]

Read again a little bit in the NAVAIR and found the following fact:

It is suggested, for AAR, to do it with 240kts IAS and wing sweep at 40°. (And air source left, of course)

The reason for the wingsweep is, that the AOA rises and the vertical stabilizers are outsite the jetwas from the tanker.

Very interesting. Would be awesome to see that correct modelled...

[IronMike]

Read again a little bit in the NAVAIR and found the following fact:

It is suggested, for AAR, to do it with 240kts IAS and wing sweep at 40°. (And air source left, of course)

The reason for the wingsweep is, that the AOA rises and the vertical stabilizers are outsite the jetwas from the tanker.

Very interesting. Would be awesome to see that correct modelled...

 

 

it is modeled, at 40° and this speed the vertical stabs will be below your level flight path. as for jetwash, that depends on the tanker of course, we modeled this, too. Speeds varied though, and for example Okie mentioned that him and all the pilots he knew would refuel simply in Auto. Rookies sometimes used bomb mode. Squadrons did not always follow NATOPS, some even wrote their own POHs to fit their own SOPs etc..

 

But try it, setup a mission with a tanker at this speed and sweep the wings aft 40, you might find it like me, noticably easier. (However I usually refuel auto).

[WindyTX]

The other reason for Tanking with the wings back is that due to the increased drag you are working with the throttles in the more responsive higher Rpm area which makes it easier as long as you have sufficient excess thrust available.

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[viper2097]

it is modeled, at 40° and this speed the vertical stabs will be below your level flight path.

Yes, it is modelled that the AOA rises and the vertical stabs go deeper, but I meant that:

 

as for jetwash, that depends on the tanker of course, we modeled this, too.

I never noticed any jetwash on the vertical stabs when doing AA-refueling in Auto (KC130/135/S3). I meant it would be nice to feel actually an difference between Auto and 40° according to the Jetwash on the vertical stabs while being connected. (But according your next quote, it seems like it was not that big deal)

 

Speeds varied though, and for example Okie mentioned that him and all the pilots he knew would refuel simply in Auto.

I also always refueled in Auto, worked good so far and without any problems. (got around 50 or 60 A-A refuelings in my logbook for the cat IIRC)

 

Rookies sometimes used bomb mode. Squadrons did not always follow NATOPS, some even wrote their own POHs to fit their own SOPs etc..

Yes, I also see online and generally a lot of rookies doing it with wings in bomb or full back.

I guess it also seems easier for them, because the canopy bar is not blocking so much because of the higher AOA.

 

But try it, setup a mission with a tanker at this speed and sweep the wings aft 40, you might find it like me, noticably easier. (However I usually refuel auto).

Tried it yesterday for the first time. As I'm also trying out VR at the moment, I'm not sure if it easier or not. feels like I need to learn all again :D:joystick:.

 

But as Windy says, it feels like the throttle operates in a slighty better controlable area. But also it feels a little bit more nervous on the ailerons and a little bit more sloppy on the elevator. Just not sure. Need more attemps.

Edited July 25, 2019 by viper2097

[NahkaSukka]

Anyone had blackout when connected? I just had

[jmarso]

Clearly, you needed a micronap! ;)

[IronMike]

@viper the only tanker where the basket comes close to jetwash in dcs is the Viking. I do feel it there very well, if I am a bit off to the side. the KC-130/135 have the basket to the sides of their engines. Try this: fly just on the lower jetwash behind the engine and then change your AOA, you should feel a difference (just not behind the basket, even in a Viking, not directly)

 

EDIT: in the KC-135 however if you fly a bit on the outer side, you can feel the wing vortices though..

[Matic_Prime]

Hi all,

 

here are my experiences so far: In the F18 Iam able to hit the basket in 90%+ of the attempts.

 

But in the cat it is a whole different story. The cat is much more unstable and has a kind of "drifting" behavior to rudder input.

 

Is there anything i can do in addition to set the wingsweep to 40° to get this drifting behavior under control?

 

Even when I hit the basket Iam only able to stay 5 to 15 seconds connected. The area where the basket stays connected is just too small.

 

And one additional question: Do you look through the HUD or through the window to the side when you approach the basket?

 

Is it just a matter of training? How long did u practice?

 

KR, Jan

[viper2097]

Which tanker are you training? KC-130 with 250kts IAS is by far the easiest as it has the biggest "box" where you connect and stay connected.

F-18 is very, very easy to refuel, Tomcat is a harder job, correct.

 

Why do you need rudder? I barely use rudder while refueling. Maybe a little bit when flying circle during refueling.

You always look at the tanker and never at the basket. Check the basket only with your spherical seeing. You are flying formation with the tanker, the refueling ist just little thing by the way...

 

As everything in life it is only a matter of training :). Invest some hours and you will see that it is also not a big deal with the cat...

Edited August 6, 2019 by viper2097

[WindyTX]

Try not using the rudder, Aileron is left right and the amount of rudder adjustment for those tiny movements is probably impossible for you to guage with PC controls. You can apply rudder trim for the probe making you assymetric slightly but do this at the side of the tanker at the same time you trim the pitch for your chosen wing sweep setting.

Once you move behind the tanker all trimmed out it's just flying formation with the tanker. The drifting you feel differently in the F14 is either you pushing on the rudder, which you shouldn't be, or the turbulence effect of the tanker both of which can be countered with Aileron . In the F18 the FCS may be not giving you much rudder as it knows you don't need it and in a turn it does it for you.

If you can't help pushing on the rudders put your feet on the floor instead of the pedals.

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[Matic_Prime]

Try not using the rudder, Aileron is left right and the amount of rudder adjustment for those tiny movements is probably impossible for you to guage with PC controls. You can apply rudder trim for the probe making you assymetric slightly but do this at the side of the tanker at the same time you trim the pitch for your chosen wing sweep setting.

Once you move behind the tanker all trimmed out it's just flying formation with the tanker. The drifting you feel differently in the F14 is either you pushing on the rudder, which you shouldn't be, or the turbulence effect of the tanker both of which can be countered with Aileron . In the F18 the FCS may be not giving you much rudder as it knows you don't need it and in a turn it does it for you.

If you can't help pushing on the rudders put your feet on the floor instead of the pedals.

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

 

Tks. By the way how do i activate the auto trim? Did not use it until now, but will try it today. Makes this things easier?

[WindyTX]

There is no auto trim in the F14 it's too old. In the F18 it's always active out of landing configuration.

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

[Matic_Prime]

I finally did it

 

Guys today i managed to do my first complete air to air refueling in the cat :thumbup::thumbup:. With wingsweep in auto.

 

Thanks for all the tips.

 

The key was to focus on the tanker and "flow" with him first before you go for the basket. And to lower the view a little bit so you can see more of the tanker while you approach.

 

As soon as you are connected search for some reference point at the tanker and fly in formation.

 

For all who struggle: Just keep it up it is really a matter of training and will.

 

P.S: Also make sure ur probe is extended in the "all" mode. Otherwise you waste a lot of time wondering why the fuel does not increase over 12100 like me :P.

[VampireNZ]

Remember to drive forward a decent way after contact. If you are trying to hold station as soon as you contact the basket then it is no surprise you are struggling, and minor deviations result in unplugging.

Keep and eye on the lit transfer light on the hose pod as an indication you are approaching a disconnect (if it goes out). Just plug in then carry on forward and up as you follow the drape line of the hose - if you just drive straight forward, again you are going to reach the connection limit sooner (hose not long enough to come down to you).

If you park right up behind the refuel pod (but not too close!) you will find you have a huge area that you can drift around in and not drop connection - but yea try to focus on a sight picture and react positively and promptly to maintain that picture, don't let the aircraft drift away then think about doing something about it.

 

Edit: Oh sniped lol - I see you have it nailed now. Nice job. Now every mission - blast off the carrier and AB straight up to the tanker to fill up, will become second nature in no time :thumbup:

Edited August 6, 2019 by VampireNZ

[viper2097]

Now every mission - blast off the carrier and AB straight up to the tanker to fill up, will become second nature in no time :thumbup:

 

AB use is prohibited on the B, thats why we need the A soon ;).

[VampireNZ]

AB use is prohibited on the B, thats why we need the A soon ;).

 

Lol wat?

 

Pretty sure AB use during flight is authorised on the B model Sir - you know, as you "AB straight up to the tanker to fill up" :thumbup:

 

( Am aware of AB clearance for different models during cat launch...psst my Aavatr is a Tomcat ;))

Edited August 6, 2019 by VampireNZ

[viper2097]

Yes, use of AB was generally prohibited on the B model and only allowed in case of emergency or necessary tactical engagement reasons.

If it "would" be also necessary to launch it extrem heavy from the cat, AB would have been engaged during acceleration.

 

I try to find the wording again.

 

However, I read multiple times that also "if no one sees it, it never happend" or "depends on who is watching" have been applied. (Especially on cat launches)

For no missunderstandings: Useing AB while arrested on the cat was always and ever prohibited as the cat would have torn the hold back bar. If, AB was only applied during acceleration.

 

Edit:

Here you go: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3695105&postcount=5

Edited August 7, 2019 by viper2097

[draconus]

Which tanker are you training? KC-130 with 250kts IAS is by far the easiest as it has the biggest "box" where you connect and stay connected.

F-18 is very, very easy to refuel, Tomcat is a harder job, correct.

Do you find any of the FC3 aircraft easier than Tomcat to AAR?

[viper2097]

Not really sure.

F-15 is quite easy to refuel, but it is another system, so maybe not good to compare.

Su-33 is probably at the same dificulty level like the Tomcat. But I never flew that much with the Su-33/27 to get really used to the flightmodel, so I may be not a good reference.

 

Its hard to judge and compare, because when you get used to it, everything is not that hard anymore.

But what I can say to everyone for sure: Its only training. Even if you think you'll never make it. Train and you will see how fast it becomes a piece of cake.

Edited August 7, 2019 by viper2097

[draconus]

But what I can say to everyone for sure: Its only training. Even if you think you'll never make it. Train and you will see how fast it becomes a piece of cake.

 

Oh no, I'm not giving up! I recently moved from teasing it a few times an hour to making contact for a few seconds. That way I can already tank faster than I burn :thumbup:

[viper2097]

I can really recommend the KC-130 with 250kts IAS. Thats the sweet spot and makes it a lot easier.

[draconus]

I can really recommend the KC-130 with 250kts IAS. Thats the sweet spot and makes it a lot easier.

Phew, done! Over 4 mins easy up to full tanks!:punk: