OT: Indian MRCA tender is out!

[tflash]

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070828_mrca_rfp.htm

[159th_Viper]

$10 billion.......:blink: That's a pretty healthy Budget.

[Pilotasso]

Im glad thats pretty far away from here. Good grief.

[FWT]

lol

[The_GOZR]

Im glad thats pretty far away from here. Good grief..

 

 

Hum... not much!!!

[Witchking]

great! India doesn't want to join in the regulations for decreasing emissions and they are spending 10 billion on more aircraft. I have lived there for most of my life....there are far important issues and that 10 billion can make a tremendous difference. meh! disappointment.

[Mugatu]

Interesting. no F-35 on the list. Mig-35 or Eurofighter will be the winner.

 

I'll be betting on the Eurofighter, purely for India wanting to keep in touch with Western technology.

 

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/july/2007/20070724_F-35.htm

[tflash]

You must also put things in perspective: India is a VERY large country; remember that a little country like Belgium had no less than 160 F-16's at the height of the Cold War. Currently there are orders for 380+ Typhoons to defend Europe.

[Force_Feedback]

Hmmm, the Eurofighter would be the best aircraft of those, but it may lack the infrastructure needed for operation in India, that and the Russian lobby will probably make the Mig-35 the winner. It also has a more advanced radar and more modern avionics. Plus, they already have experience with the type. My Bet is on the Mig-35, even though the EF is a better aircraft (higher class)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

“Transfer of technology” part of the deal will decide which aircraft will win.

[Slaunyeh]

Ok the expert there, any idea why Mig 35 and not Su35. I suppose because Su30 can be retrofitted is that right ?

And why Eurofighter and not Rafale ?

 

And yes as in any emergent state politics will probably win over military decision this mean tech. transference will win over military capability.

Another probable factor thats win will be range capability since india is a extense country.

[tflash]

Hmmm, the Eurofighter would be the best aircraft of those, but it may lack the infrastructure needed for operation in India, that and the Russian lobby will probably make the Mig-35 the winner. It also has a more advanced radar and more modern avionics. Plus, they already have experience with the type. My Bet is on the Mig-35, even though the EF is a better aircraft (higher class)

 

My bet is also on the Mig-35, but I would be hesitant to say it has "a more advanced radar". Of course, Typhoon has a classic radar with mechanically steered antenna, but it is operational, very performant and a mature evolution. The Mig-35's AESA radar is only in early stages.

 

Besides, AESA is a requirement I thought so Eurofighter will probably propose the CAESAR radar, a CAPTOR with AESA antenna. My guess is this is in roughly the same development stage as the Mig-35 AESA radar.

[Force_Feedback]

My bet is also on the Mig-35, but I would be hesitant to say it has "a more advanced radar". Of course, Typhoon has a classic radar with mechanically steered antenna, but it is operational, very performant and a mature evolution. The Mig-35's AESA radar is only in early stages.

 

Besides, AESA is a requirement I thought so Eurofighter will probably propose the CAESAR radar, a CAPTOR with AESA antenna. My guess is this is in roughly the same development stage as the Mig-35 AESA radar.

 

Yes, but then the mig has some custom-made optics and launch/illumination detectors. How about the databus in the Eurofighter? The one in the mig has a 600 mbit throughput, this leaves it with sufficient growth potential (not having to rewire and recertify the wiring). The EF has more hardpoints, better engines, and canards. The mig has familiarity with the techs, a domestic engine assembly line, lower recertification costs for the pilots and is capable of carrying existing munitions without modifications.

Again, I think the Indians will go for the Mig, even though it's becoming the next F-15; old airframe with lots of upgrades. Maybe the Russians will start making new fighters after they got enough orders, this upgrade routine is getting old, and so are the designs. But maybe a 60 year old airframe will be normal in 30 years, who knows, we already have B-52s, Tu-95s, Mig-21s, F-1s, F-4s and various others still flying out there. I heard that Albania still has the Mig-17 flying on active duty :P

[Pilotasso]

great! India doesn't want to join in the regulations for decreasing emissions and they are spending 10 billion on more aircraft. I have lived there for most of my life....there are far important issues and that 10 billion can make a tremendous difference. meh! disappointment.

 

 

Thats irrelevant WK. because India wont have "more" aircraft. They will replace the Mig-21 with these. Besides all those fighters wont even dent the CO2 emissions rates since they are in an universe of MILLIONS of vehicles and factories. Contrary to the belief, airplanes acount for little of the total.

[Dudikoff]

Again, I think the Indians will go for the Mig, even though it's becoming the next F-15; old airframe with lots of upgrades. Maybe the Russians will start making new fighters after they got enough orders, this upgrade routine is getting old, and so are the designs.

 

This is true but I don't see that much design advantages that the Eurofighter has over the MiG-35 for having a newer airframe.

[tflash]

I guess one of the problems for Eurofighter might be that it still not has full air to ground capabilities. Integrating new weapons seems extremely slow. And the ones that are being integrated won't be available for India I guess, like the incredible Storm Shadow missile.

Compare this with say the Super Hornet, that comes of the shelf with almost any weapon you can dream of. Mig-35 seems also to have a wide array of weaponry, if I'm right also ARM missiles.

[Slaunyeh]

Compare this with say the Super Hornet, that comes of the shelf with almost any weapon you can dream of.

 

I wonґt bet on that statement...USA time and again, had made promise of delivering weaponry and once the sold was done, havenґt delivered for "national security issues" or any in the genre statement. Last case was SA if i remember well.

It is well know UAS arent bent on tech transfer too.

[Alfa]

Ok the expert there, any idea why Mig 35 and not Su35. I suppose because Su30 can be retrofitted is that right ?

 

The Su-35 is in a different class of aircraft, which is already being covered by India's Su-30MKI program. The MRCA tender is for a smaller multirole fighter to replace the current fleet of aging MiG-21s mainly - but I believe the intention actually is to arrive at a more "uniform" fleet of aircraft in this category, so which ever is chosen will probably replace several other types as well.

 

Anyway, one aspect that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, is that the Indian navy purchased the MiG-29K/MiG-29KUB combo which has a very high degree of commonology with the MiG-29M2(on which the MiG-35 is based), so there should be potential for joint navy/airforce maintenance and training facilities if the airforce chooses the MiG-35.

 

And why Eurofighter and not Rafale ?

 

Beats me - I would say that the most likely candidates would be the MiG-35 and the Rafale. Apart from the Rafale seemingly fitting better in the category of multirole aircraft covered by the MRCA tender than the Eurofighter, the Indian airforce currently operates a number of Mirage 2000-5 (multirole)fighters for which the Rafale would seem a natural replacement.

 

However, when the tender was first announced, most people would have put their money on the Mirage 2000-5 being offered by Dassault at the time, because it would be a fairly straight forward case of expanding on the existing fleet of these aircraft(with which the IAF seemed quite happy), but as the launch of the tender kept dragging out a number of new factors came into play:

 

1). the realisation of the MiG-29K/MiG-29KUB order, which provides the potential benefits I started by mentioning.

 

2). closure of the Mirage 2000-5 production line - hence the reason Dassault now offers the Rafale instead, which means an aircraft the IAF has no past experience with and therefore less obvious choice than would be case with the Mirage 2000-5.

 

3). RSK MIG now offering the MiG-35 instead of the MiG-29M2 - i.e. a significant "up-teched" version with AESA radar and sophisticated "ground capable" EOS.

 

So if I was to make a prediction now, the MiG-35 would be firmly on the top of the list of candidates - but of course there are many considerations other than the purely tech related being weighed, so you never know :) .

[Slaunyeh]

Thank you Alfa, greats answer there.

Its seems for a number of reasons Mig is the favourite horse in this race....

Tech transfer and uniformity of the fleet seems to bent the choice.

[superdunkaroos]

actually the us have promised a spin off with the f35 in case india goes ahead with the f16(whatever tht means)...its in the newspaper here

they've also offered the f18 superhornet

[sagarika]

Russia should look at some creative ways to win orders from India for Mig-35. India has been having maintenence problems with the Mig-29's. Maybe Russia can offer to exchange the current Mig-29's India has for Mig-35 with Thrust Vectoring(India can pay the difference in cost). Like someone said earlier India is looking to standardize its platforms the the different Migs only makes it difficult for IAF. Once the Mig-35's comes in, it is always easier for the client to order more of them. Also Mig-35's operating in India makes it easier for more orders from other clients.

 

Like in the case of Su-30MKI the orders started small but it has become a huge order now. Also Sukhoi's decision to replace the Su-30K's and Su-30MK-1's with the Su-30MKI's made it easier to win support in India and easier to order the 40 more.

 

Russia can pull a trick out of the bag and this option is not there for the other competitors.

[Force_Feedback]

I dare not speculate on the moddability of the Mig-29, but since the Mig-35 is basically a gutted and severely moified airframe, I don't think it would be cheap to convert vanilla migs into 35s. Also keep in mind that airframes have a limited service life.

[sagarika]

True...thats why I mentioned 'replace' and not 'upgrade'. Once Mig-35's make it to the Indian Air Force in this way..there will definitely be more orders..from other countries as well and also IAF. Repeat orders are always easier than new orders.

 

This will also boost further research into Migs like how it was possible with Sukhois when India MKI'zed the planes from just A-A to A-G as well as emphasis on /Avionics/Display/Composites etc.

 

Sukhoi also enhanced its reputation on account of MKI in the combats routines of IAF with other countries.