Any concern over Harrier development?

[FSKRipper]

I think a big part of the problem is that new folks come, and they think they know what EA means based on other modules. They post bug reports, they try to get engaged, then they realize no one on the dev team cares, bug reports erroneously get moved to resolved when they are clearly not and so forth. Then they get call moaners and bitchers by the fanboys, they often get banned due to the frustration. Eventually they don't give a shit and post bad things about Razbam. Its pretty sad really, the fanboys aren't really "helping" by accepting a sub par product.

 

I could write a book on the failures of "community management" here, and actually do use them as an amazing example of not to do things IRL. But that's just my world, you know where people pay money for working products.

 

Yes, I can write a book too. There a people like you, joined less then 6 months ago, 1800 posts, according to the last 90 days most of them are rants, complains and bitching. Less then 2% fulfill the minimum values for a standard bug report according to ED standards,

active in several sub forums, no master forum. Our company IT would have you blocked as Troll and for a good reason. You are still here so no way of a strict forum policy...

 

Even Heatblur is going sparse with their answers, great job :thumbup:

I get the feeling some people arent here for flight sims :music_whistling:

Edited May 11, 2019 by FSKRipper

[Harlikwin]

Yes, I can write a book too. There a people like you, joined less then 6 months ago, 1800 posts, according to the last 90 days most of them are rants, complains and bitching. Less then 2% fulfill the minimum values for a standard bug report according to ED standards,

active in several sub forums, no master forum. Our company IT would have you blocked as Troll and for a good reason. You are still here so no way of a strict forum policy...

 

Even Heatblur is going sparse with their answers, great job :thumbup:

I get the feeling some people arent here for flight sims :music_whistling:

 

LOL... Yup totally accurate... Thanks for the personal attack, im sure thats in line with forum decorum. FWIW most of my early bug reports here had track files and details, they were ignored which is SOP for Razbam, not even the one I had Decoy personally acknowledge made the bug tracker. Now at best I chime in here and there to reassure people its not just them and it is a bug, it simply isn't worth my time if its going to be ignored, that's the "healthy" environment this specific subforum supports. As for other parts of the forum, I've got plenty of helpful stuff posted. But thanks for the cyberstalk and poor attempt at cyberbullying.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Harlikwin

[33-DFTC]

Hey, but there's folks saying "regular updates". This doesn't stand up to reality and since November 2017 you can read changelog cadence https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=204693 and understand the actual figures.

Let me start by saying that what is there is good, shows promise, is very frustrating when it’s so well rounded by lacking attention to detail and collects along the way bugs that can drive me wild for months on end like that bomb fall line.

There were very long gaps in feature completion, some on their second visit left incomplete. To have something regular it requires to be not having periods of inactivity. "Measurable progress gained in a steady fashion towards feature complete", less serious bugs not withstanding. Just look at the start, page 1 is very steady, page two begins to peter out and even the Razbam community manager gave up for April/May and said not much is going on, bang went their regular updates and they downsized to quarterly because … well guess…nothing to say.

 

What we are looking at is TWO PASSES at some avionics. Initial release, like a turning INS switch and automatic alignment at basic level which appeared to be at a rapid pass according to a plan ('Next week im doing X feature', to quote the team), then revisiting a year later to refine, adding SEA alignment, Ground etc which is not a regular or encouraging cadence of updates in anyone's opinion. INS has still got the turn all the way clockwise and back to bypass bug after the second revisit.

 

To be very clear, even with a long roadmap, slow progress, a team shows their organisation by approaching things in a logical fashion, stating intended work, performing the work, getting feedback, completing the feature, then moving on. That's almost how Harrier started until the silence and slow down. Compare this to Hornet, which may appear glacial, but it's 3cm per year glacial and each feature arrives, goes through OB testing, is iterated on, then is pretty much done and onto the next. Implement HARM page, iterate, state further updates pend implementation of X feature, etc. I don't care what Reddit says, the Hornet is communicated in the form that someone is thinking about it, no matter how slow it is or how much I could forsee JDAM’s being held up by the imprecision of coordinates months before they got to that phase, it’s irrelevant in the big scheme. This particular Harrier glacier can stop itself, then repaint itself, but it's going to have to revisit entire systems 3 times now. Is the next INS pass next year? The TPOD? Still can't reset forward and bugs out? How can you even remember the code for a system a year later? Is that efficient?

Without Razbam giving a commitment then meeting a commitment, customer will look at the available history and data and make their own minds up. If you aren't regular or committed at regular periods towards the end goal of 'feature complete', and you stop any progress on core features, leaving them half done or untouched for over a year (depending which feature but I'm looking at you Avionics) THEN you go over the same paint work again, it should not come as a surprise that customers foresee abandonment of some features into their current state.

Razbam have left a vacuum on the forums with their silence and made a poor decision to allow that vacuum to fill with disgruntled customer comments piling up. I've got news for you guys, I work in this industry and you have to meet that head on, man up and smile through it, not have a hissy fit at a troll pumping his gums on social media.

 

Trust takes years to build and a second to lose, but you are working on losing trust over years and spending seconds trying to rebuild it….that’s not going to work.

 

Thank you for this comprehensive post, that sums up pretty well the situation.

[FSKRipper]

But thanks for the cyberstalk and poor attempt at cyberbullying.

 

Nothing to thank for :thumbup: maybe got you an idea how Razbam employees feel :music_whistling:

 

Sad that you gave up useful bug reports to be constructive especially since we dont get feedback for every single report even in the Hornet forum. Telling you were ignored is a little, lets say subjective for this reason...but anyhow, enjoy the discussion. I'm out of this pointless debate.

Edited May 12, 2019 by FSKRipper

[viper2097]

There are not a few bug reports ignored, there are the majority of the bug reports ignored, not giving any fedback and never made it to their bug tracker.

Also their bug tracker seems never to be updated.

 

But yes, thats the right approach. Blame the paying customer, not the company who takes the money and does nit deliver.

[BIGNEWY]

Yes, I can write a book too. There a people like you, joined less then 6 months ago, 1800 posts, according to the last 90 days most of them are rants, complains and bitching. Less then 2% fulfill the minimum values for a standard bug report according to ED standards,

active in several sub forums, no master forum. Our company IT would have you blocked as Troll and for a good reason. You are still here so no way of a strict forum policy...

 

Even Heatblur is going sparse with their answers, great job :thumbup:

I get the feeling some people arent here for flight sims :music_whistling:

 

I don't think some people can help it, it is in their nature to be negative and destructive with their feedback.

 

I've not been part of the ED volunteer team for some time now, so I get to reply a lot more of my own thoughts on the forum without worrying about the paying customer, frankly parts of this community are their own enemy, it is as if they want to create problems for teams instead of being constructive with feedback that would support third parties, they want to plant the seeds of destruction.

 

All we can do is be as supportive as possible, report the bugs we see and continue to be patient. Having had a insight into the dev process and the people involved I know they are working as hard as possible to get things done.

[imacken]

I don't think some people can help it, it is in their nature to be negative and destructive with their feedback.

 

I've not been part of the ED volunteer team for some time now, so I get to reply a lot more of my own thoughts on the forum without worrying about the paying customer, frankly parts of this community are their own enemy, it is as if they want to create problems for teams instead of being constructive with feedback that would support third parties, they want to plant the seeds of destruction.

 

All we can do is be as supportive as possible, report the bugs we see and continue to be patient. Having had a insight into the dev process and the people involved I know they are working as hard as possible to get things done.

From what I can see on this thread and others relating to the same topic, a lot of users patience is wearing thin with RAZBAM. People have had patience initially and done a lot of bug reporting, but the lack of feedback from the devs to their customers has clearly been too much for some to bear, and they have turned on the devs.

In my business, I learned a long time ago, that proper communications between people is the key to success. Whether that be to resolve internal issues or customer based issues, good communications solves the majority, and it would seem that RAZBAM are failing in communicating satisfactorily with their customers.

I'm glad that you are confident that the devs are going 'to get things done', but you are in a privileged position by getting an insight into the process. Customers are still in the dark.

From what I have read here, it seems to me that a statement from RAZBAM about their current Harrier dev plans plus some regular updates on progress would go a long way to making some paying customers happier.

[BIGNEWY]

but you are in a privileged position by getting an insight into the process.

 

correction,

I was in a privileged position, I am no longer and don't have any insight into continued development.

[imacken]

correction,

I was in a privileged position, I am no longer and don't have any insight into continued development.

Apologies for using the word 'are' instead of 'were'!

My point still stands though, i.e. you have made a judgement from a (historical) privileged position, but consumers are in the dark. So, I would say it is understandable that they may not share your optimism.

[some1]

I just looked at several old bugs I reported, and even though they are now in "resolved" section, they are still broken in the latest open beta.

 

If that's the way Razbam wants to "fix" the Harrier, then yeah, that's a cause for concern.

[BIGNEWY]

Apologies for using the word 'are' instead of 'were'!

My point still stands though, i.e. you have made a judgement from a (historical) privileged position, but consumers are in the dark. So, I would say it is understandable that they may not share your optimism.

 

I honestly think some of the negativity is from people with high expectations thinking they are dealing with multi national giants like google. These third parties are small teams trying their best to bring our dream aircraft to us. Maybe what is needed is for some to lower their expectations / not buy any product marked early access and be prepared for the long haul journey.

[imacken]

I honestly think some of the negativity is from people with high expectations thinking they are dealing with multi national giants like google. These third parties are small teams trying their best to bring our dream aircraft to us. Maybe what is needed is for some to lower their expectations / not buy any product marked early access and be prepared for the long haul journey.

 

You may be right, and I have no opinion on RAZBAM. That is why I started this thread, I wanted to gauge opinion on what I had read.

However, it seems clear to me that they are definitely more heavily criticised compared to some other devs. Look at Heatblur, for example, on both the Viggen and the Tomcat sub-forums, representatives from HB are pretty active. This gives a lot of confidence to users that these modules are being actively progressed at a reasonable pace, and they will move out of EA at some point. (Obviously, you still get people who are not satisfied, but that's just the way things are these days.)

[BIGNEWY]

Some worldly advice from me as an older guy, never listen to the critics always find out for yourself :)

[imacken]

Some worldly advice from me as an older guy, never listen to the critics always find out for yourself :)

 

I'm an older guy too, and I agree with you! That's why I asked the question here, to try and get reassurance that the criticism was unjustified. I'm not sure that has been achieved.

In some circumstances it's not easy to find out for yourself. For example, if someone says 'film xxx' is rubbish, then it's easy to decide for yourself by watching the said film. However, in the case of something like this, it is not really possible to make your own decision unless you are prepared to wait several years to see what developments occur.

In life, there are opinions, and then there are facts!

[Harlikwin]

I honestly think some of the negativity is from people with high expectations thinking they are dealing with multi national giants like google. These third parties are small teams trying their best to bring our dream aircraft to us. Maybe what is needed is for some to lower their expectations / not buy any product marked early access and be prepared for the long haul journey.

 

Honestly I don't think my personal expectations are all that high and I'm trying to compare apples to apples, i.e. these guys to other DCS devs, not google. And yeah, EA is EA, but there is a difference how Razbam does it versus other devs.

 

It sounds like at some point you were involved with Razbam and got to see behind the curtain, and that's great for you, but its not something the rest of get to see. Frankly, I used to work in software development many years ago, and I know the last thing I really want to see is the coder(s) spending their time posting a lot here, they should be coding features and/or fixing bugs. But someone should be handling PR at some level here, answering questions and dealing with bug reports. My guess is that there are currently enough bugs that they know about that new ones are lower on the priority list.

 

Getting back to the apples to apples discussion, the F18 bug reporting or the F14 bug reporting and community involvement with various SME's is much better than it is here. Some guy asks about the F14 radar or how some function on it works, he usually gets an answer of some sort from a dev or SME like Victory205 pretty quickly. Or aerodynamic questions or landing the F18, same thing from Lex or wags. Here its mostly the blind leading the blind, based on what we can glean from NATOOOPs or the Tac manual. Which aren't always the best sources since they aren't detailed enough in some cases to answer the questions, but its what we have.

[Harlikwin]

From what I can see on this thread and others relating to the same topic, a lot of users patience is wearing thin with RAZBAM. People have had patience initially and done a lot of bug reporting, but the lack of feedback from the devs to their customers has clearly been too much for some to bear, and they have turned on the devs.

In my business, I learned a long time ago, that proper communications between people is the key to success. Whether that be to resolve internal issues or customer based issues, good communications solves the majority, and it would seem that RAZBAM are failing in communicating satisfactorily with their customers.

I'm glad that you are confident that the devs are going 'to get things done', but you are in a privileged position by getting an insight into the process. Customers are still in the dark.

From what I have read here, it seems to me that a statement from RAZBAM about their current Harrier dev plans plus some regular updates on progress would go a long way to making some paying customers happier.

 

Its also been my experience that communication in companies is really what sets them apart. Good companies engage with their customers and deal with complaints as best they can. Doesn't really matter which "field" the company is in. Now that is a two way street and customers generally are pretty understanding because they get that not everything can fixed right away, but usually good comms means they feel like their concerns will get addressed.

 

Months ago Decoy did promise some sort of big harrier update of sorts, then I think both threads on that got deleted and its been silent here since then. It would be nice to see a list of features things left to do, or final state of features for the harrier. I get all the reasons that's sometimes problematic but a tentative list of things the harrier will do at the end of the day would be nice to see.

Edited May 12, 2019 by Harlikwin

[Rhinozherous]

Communication is the key. When you talk with the people they dont have to create their own explainations...

I dont checked all pages in the thread but there is a serious concern from a lot of customers and no response from the devs.

[Holbeach]

@ Harlikwin.

 

 

 

Here is an indicator to the state of play 15 months ago.

Should give an idea of what has and hasn't been done since then, by elimination of known updates.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

 

From Snoopy:

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196533

 

 

I’m sure RAZBAM has an internal listing but I thought I’d put together a list from the pocket guide so those of us in the community can keep track as the functions are added. I initially made this list so as we evaluate within the 476 vFG to possibly add the Harrier as a new Squadron we could keep track of some of the key things that need to be added first.

 

If anyone sees anything I missed (or Zeus sees something I interpreted wrong from the guide) let me know.

 

Looking forward to getting my hands on this aircraft tomorrow, she’s looking good so far from the preview videos and I’m excited for what is yet to be implemented!

 

Missing features in Early Access (as of 14 Feb 18 ):

• Moving Map
  
• Ground Power Control Panel functionality
  
• NRAS & PC Valves fixed
  
• INS alignment options
  
• Ability to create/modify flight plans
  
• Markpoint (MK) Navigation
  
• EASY COMMS only
  
• Manually change radio frequencies
  
• UFC MAN Mode
  
• V/UHF radio Set Controls (RCS)
  
• EMCON Mode
  
• TDC Action/No Action modes
  
• NAVFLIR cool down time
  
• Video brightness Control
  
• Video Contrast Function
  
• NAVFLIR Hotspot Detector
  
• Manual Delivery Mode
  
• UFC & ODU Weapons Programming
  
• DSL(1)(manual) delivery mode
  
• NVG Case
  
• Pilot Body on/off
  

HUD Display

• TGP interface
  
• HUD Symbology Brightness
  
• FLIR Video Controls
  
• MPCD Display Swap
  
• course knob
  

UFC

• Additional UFC Functions Modes
  --IFF
  --Weapons (WPN)
  --Waypoint Over Fly (WDF)
  --Radar Beacon (BCN)
  --Altimeter (ALT)
  --Emission Control (EM CON)
  --Target-of-Opportunity (TOO)
  

Multi-Purpose Color Display (MPCD)

• MPCD Brightness knob
  
• Additional MPCD Pages
  --HUD Repeater (HUD)
  --Built-in Test (BIT)
  --V/STOL -Rest Calculator page (VRST)
  --Software Configuration page (CONF)
  --IFF Data page (IFF)
  --Pre-programmed kneeboard card (CARD)
  --Close Air Support page (CAS)
  --Emergency Checklist Cards page (EMER)
  --System Data page(SDAT)
  --Communication data page (COMM)
  

Weapons Acquisition & Deliver Modes

• Sidewinder Extended Acquisition Mode (SEAM)
  
• LOFT Delivery Mode
  
• AGM-65E/TGM-65E
  
• Further development of AGM-122A
  
• Expendables dispensing programming
  
• Additional Weapons (although specifics not listed)
  

Warnings/Cautions/Advisories

• C_AUT: Computed delivery mode (AUTO and CCIP)
  
• Voice Warnings
  

 

Items not listed in the Pocket Guide

• KC-135 updated to include refueling pods (per Wags)
  
• Additional Ship assets
  

 

ITEMS ADDED

• Mirrors On/Off
  
• Day/Night HUD
  
• KC-130 TACAN
  
• autopilot
  

______________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

There are also 7 items on the bug tracker.

..

Edited May 14, 2019 by Holbeach

[p1t1o]

Im just saying, with the magical energy performance of the M2000 and its terrible, terrible missiles...if they dont get Harrier 100% right, its over for RAZBAM, for me.

[viper2097]

I know its off-topic, but why do you find Mirage's missiles terrible?

Instead, I find that those are absolute incredible good.

(Don't know if they are in reality or only as Razbam coded them)

 

@Holbeach:

I think that ther are already many things included, but, however, bug free is again another chapter...

 

I think the whole Harrier Situation can be summed very easy:

 

Razbam offered a full fidelity module to purchase.

They decided also, to offer it as early access.

Early access means, that you pay now the FULL PRICE for a module that is still work in progress, so that you can already use it while it is constantly worked on to finish it.

At the end of the day, you should get a full working, bug free module and the Devs can go straight to the next project.

 

So, we fullfilled our part and paid the full price.

Razbam did not, they yet not delivered equivalent to the price we paid.

Even worse, there is nearly to none progress. (Remember, its an WORK IN PROGRESS module)

Even more worse, there is another module been released in the meantime.

Even more, more worse, the Mirage, which is stated as released (so it should be complete and bug free) is full of bugs.

And as topping, you can read on what upcoming modules Razbam is working.

Razbam does nearly none, to absolute none communication. If something is said, it will be broken just days / weeks after.

Bug reports are ignored or moved to the "solved" section even if they are clearly not.

 

So, what are you all expecting how people feel?

What possibilites do we have expect posting here?

What should we do, wait years and keep smileing while they release three other modules?

How would you all Fanbois consider to place our worries?

What can we do, to get heard by Razbam and that the overall situation gets satisfying?

Edited May 13, 2019 by viper2097

[bkthunder]

I'll just throw a couple of thoughts out there:

 

During the Mirage development, Razbam was by far the most communicative 3rd party ever. I've personally praised them more than once for how they handled bug reports etc. In fact, I bought the Harrier because I had trust in Razbam.

However, the Harrier has proven a totally different experience and I am very disappointed.

 

The M2000 was developed in cooperation with Metal2Mesh, who had already made a good FSX payware Mirage (as well as an F-15E I believe).

The Harrier, OTOH, was made by Razbam alone, first for FSX and now "ported" over to DCS.

I think Metal2Mesh added some degree of skills/quality that Razbam alone can't achieve, and the Harrier is a much more complex aircraft than the Mirage.

 

Given the F-18 and Harrier share similar avionics, I bet Razbam has counted maybe too much on ED passing over F-18 tech to them (MFD pages, HUD and such). In a way, I really wish they could use what ED has made for the F-18 (where it makes sense), as the F-18 Avionics is undoubtedly high quality compared to the Harrier's.

 

TLDR: They chewed more than they can swallow with the Harrier, maybe counting on more goodies from ED.

[Cornelius]

The development progress was already like a stuttering car when I bought the AV8B ( Feb. 2018 ), but when Zeus67 switched to working on the mig19, the following progress was like a slap in the face.

 

For me it was the only full fidelity module until the release of the F-14. So you sit there month after month and think that this is supposed to be a joke. Nevertheless I wish the Harrier and Razbam all the best and hopefully everything comes to a good end. But they should really add to the "What is early Access"- note, that it also means that nothing can happen for months, while they are working on another project. Anyone who has bought other software in EA automatically assumes that the developer has his main focus on the product.

 

As for the "whiteknights/ fanboys", I think the only thing they care about is that the supply of new modules to their private museums isn't endangered. That's why they react like crazy chickens as soon as criticism is expressed.

[Harlikwin]

 

Given the F-18 and Harrier share similar avionics, I bet Razbam has counted maybe too much on ED passing over F-18 tech to them (MFD pages, HUD and such). In a way, I really wish they could use what ED has made for the F-18 (where it makes sense), as the F-18 Avionics is undoubtedly high quality compared to the Harrier's.

 

TLDR: They chewed more than they can swallow with the Harrier, maybe counting on more goodies from ED.

 

I wasn't around for the Mirage EA. I also think it was a super popular module because it was the only 4th gen fighter in DCS for many years, so they made some good money on it over time (and good for them).

 

With regard to the F18 and Harrier avionics, they do share certain systems such as the Nav/INS system, and the Radar (obviously not for the N/A but if they do a + version), and probably a few others. And I think you are right, they underestimated how hard it would be to do it, coupled with the fact its really well documented which wasn't the case with the mirage, so they could use the excuse that they didn't know about how system X worked. Can't do that with the harrier. And honestly I'd hope that ED would help them out on stuff, the TPOD looks to be a pretty clear example of that happening. So I'm kind-of hoping that the INS will be same thing.

[p1t1o]

I know its off-topic, but why do you find Mirage's missiles terrible?

Instead, I find that those are absolute incredible good.

(Don't know if they are in reality or only as Razbam coded them)

 

OT:

 

Perhaps it has been fixed (dont think so) since I last played (its been a little while), but the radar is incapable of maintaining a lock on a straight-and-level, 250kt cargo plane, within visual range, without jamming, chaff or evasive manouvres for long enough to engage with the super530D.

 

Im am pretty certain this is not RL performance.

 

Have they received any attention from RAZBAM in the last 6 months or so?

 

Maybe I call it the wrong thing and its really a radar problem.

 

 

 

 

What can we do, to get heard by Razbam and that the overall situation gets satisfying?

 

We can NOT purchase, EA or otherwise, their next module.

 

But of course, we will, because every aircraft is somebody's favorite, and nobody else is making air combat sims worth a dam.

 

 

***

 

Question - in the absence of any other data, with any given Early Access product, what is the maximum reasonable time before full release? 3 years? A decade?

Edited May 14, 2019 by p1t1o

[viper2097]

You are blaming the avionics / radar of the Mirage, not their missiles. However, lot of problems with the coding in Razbams products, the bug mentioned by you is know for how long? years?

 

To say "don't buy EA" is not the solution. Look at the Hornet, perfect example of how EA should work. Look at the Viggen or the Cat. Not perfect (Viggen not yet finished, only short time for judging the progress of the Cat), but fairly ok so far.

The problem is just how Razbam handles their products and treats their customers.