F16 joystick/HOTAS discussion

[Donut]

I have more problem with the throttle , low resolution means it's hard to find the perfect spot to maintain speed.

 

While in Falcon 4 I have no problem at all in DCS it's almost a nightmare when AAR.

For example , F14 it's very sensiive in the throttle management , motors are powerful , so finding the right speed is hard.

 

Hmm, that makes sense and would be a problem. Is it more the F-14 though than the throttle? I use an X55 right now and experience the same as you in regards to engine sensitivity with the Tomcat.

 

With the CH Pro Throttle, is it accurate enough to change the engine RPM by 1% at a time or is that not even possible?

[beppe_goodoldrebel]

Hmm, that makes sense and would be a problem. Is it more the F-14 though than the throttle? I use an X55 right now and experience the same as you in regards to engine sensitivity with the Tomcat.

 

With the CH Pro Throttle, is it accurate enough to change the engine RPM by 1% at a time or is that not even possible?

 

It has 256 points IIRC. Which means 0.5% circa per point.

I also have curves in Throttle axis ( in DCS configuration , not in CH software ).

 

Still hard to AAR.

[Mad-Mex]

I currently have a Ch Pro throttle, fightstick and rudders,,,,,,,,, they work rather well with the F-5, F-86 and P-51 Modules,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

With the F-18 and A-10 not as much,,,,,,,,, would a warthog throttle and stick work better with the F-18 and F-16?

 

Thanks!

[Donut]

Well, I bought the CH stuff and tried it all out tonight for the first time. I didn't like the throttle or stick at all. The buttons and ergonomics are great but the feel/sensitivity of each axis while flying in DCS just wasn't right. Also, I suffered from the well known jitters in the throttle and stick axis and for some reason, the throttle had a full range of travel physically, but would only register between 10% and 90% in Windows and the CH software calibration. The software does not work well in Windows 10 either. I gave it a try but will be returning all of it tomorrow.

 

I will be purchasing a Thrustmaster Warthog stick, TWCS throttle, and TFRP rudder pedals. I don't know why I just didn't do this to begin with.

[BuzzU]

We tried to tell you. ;)

[Donut]

We tried to tell you. ;)

 

Ha! You guys certainly did...I will listen next time! At least this will serve as a lesson to others though who are considering which HOTAS to buy.

[GreatWhiteHype]

I hope that Thrustmaster releases the updated Cougar with the fixes that RogueSqdn mentioned as well as any other feedback others have given TM over the years. It is a good combo that continues to serve us well, it needs some love to continue the fight! The R&D is paid for which should theoretically cut down on costs of putting an updated set out there.

I have upgraded my Cougar with the pots on my Cougar stick from rel4y and have been holding out on upgrading my throttle. I am nervous about opening it up and making a mistake, I do not have a spare. Still on the fence about it.

Hopefully a fair amount of pre-orders for DCS F-16 came in to justify TM going forward with their plans. We should not forget the Falcon 4.0 BMS crowd as well! I feel the market is there and ready. I will gladly buy the set if they release it.

Edited June 11, 2019 by GreatWhiteHype

[Sierra99]

Sooooooo...

 

Saturday at the Flight Sim Expo here in Orlando Thrustmaster had the new Hornet Stick on Display along with a Cougar to demonstrate the Hornet works on the Cougar base.

 

Now understand I did not see it with my own eyes but my friend told me it looked like the Cougar THROTTLE had a USB cord coming out of it...NOT a DB style connector to attach to the cougar base.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Sierra99

[BuzzU]

Sooooooo...

 

Saturday at the Flight Sim Expo here in Orlando Thrustmaster had the new Hornet Stick on Display along with a Cougar to demonstrate the Hornet works on the Cougar base.

 

Now understand I did not see it with my own eyes but my friend told me it looked like the Cougar THROTTLE had a USB cord coming out of it...NOT a DB style connector to attach to the cougar base.

 

Not with the Cougar's i've owned. You can buy a USB adapter for it but it doesn't come with one.

[Sierra99]

Not with the Cougar's i've owned. You can buy a USB adapter for it but it doesn't come with one.

 

You missed my point...If my friend is correct...and the Cougar did indeed have a USB cord coming out of it...perhaps Thrustmaster is already be heading down that road.

[BuzzU]

I've already said if TM would release an updated Cougar it would be an easy way for them to cover the Viper. Hall sensors and a no slop gimbal would be nice. USB of course.

[RaceFuel85]

I believe Thrustmaster did say they're seriously exploring updating their F-16 throttle.

[Revelation]

I believe Thrustmaster did say they're seriously exploring updating their F-16 throttle.

 

They did. The only details they provided is that it will not be ready by the time the DCS Viper goes into EA.

[Tazman]

I wish VKB or Virpil would create an F-16 HOTAS!

That would be awesome and in a quality level that's far beyond TM's league!

They would be collector's items!

[GreatWhiteHype]

Out of curiosity, what makes VKB or Virpil better than TM on a quality level? I have a TM Cougar setup and do not own any VKB or Virpil products. Looking for an honest comparison of: quality of construction, materials used, fit/finish, and software if applicable. If I am going to dump $300 plus on a stick/throttle combo, I want the best. Thank you in advance.

Edited June 12, 2019 by GreatWhiteHype

[rome57]

Can you please share some info on the Virpil if it is really that good please.

[M1Combat]

It's all for naught when the magnetic stuff gets mature.

 

Also...

 

X65F until then.

[BuzzU]

Can you please share some info on the Virpil if it is really that good please.

 

Why don't you just Google their website?

[Kayos]

They did. The only details they provided is that it will not be ready by the time the DCS Viper goes into EA.

 

Where did they say that? Was it in an article, interview, video?

[Gman109]

Out of curiosity, what makes VKB or Virpil better than TM on a quality level? I have a TM Cougar setup and do not own any VKB or Virpil products. Looking for an honest comparison of: quality of construction, materials used, fit/finish, and software if applicable. If I am going to dump $300 plus a stick/throttle combo, I want the best. Thank you in advance.

 

 

I own several of all the above. My opinion is that the TM Warthog gimbal is sort of like a 1989 Hyundai. It'll work for a year, and then start crapping out. That's been my experience with 4 WH sticks so far. Every single one has needed to be pulled apart, have the ring replaced, and be thoroughly cleaned and re greased properly. Even after that it's still a crappy gimbal IMO, but at least it works.

 

 

Now simply Google VKB/Virpil sticks and have a look at how their internals/gimbals are constructed. Much better design, massively improved materials, etc etc etc.

 

 

 

The one thing that TM does have is a nice metal WH/Cougar stick. The metal stick/buttons are well built and sturdy - it's just the heart of that stick/system, the gimbal, is crapola. And good luck getting support after your 1 year warranty is up, and even before, it's been my experience that it is a major PITA to deal with them. Exact opposite experience with Virpil, VKB as well, although I've not needed them for much other than software explanation. Virpil my only issue was minor and just a connector that had been installed the wrong way or been twisted backwards by customs. Still, I've had Virpil within 3 hours inside my PC fixing software issues after filling out a ticket.

 

 

 

IMO if you want a great setup for the upcoming F16, get yourself a WH or Cougar stick, and a Virpil Warbrd base. The feeling with stock springs/cams and a metal TM stick is absolutely perfect, and your entire stick portion of the hotas is 90% metal. Good times. Then get a Cougar throttle and mod it with the sensors/parts available here. That's what I've done at least.

[BuzzU]

That's my plan about the Warbird base. I think TM is using a better grease in the gimbals. It feels thicker and very smooth. I'll get the Warbird when the TM craps out.

 

How does the Warbird feel around center?

[GreatWhiteHype]

I own several of all the above. My opinion is that the TM Warthog gimbal is sort of like a 1989 Hyundai. It'll work for a year, and then start crapping out. That's been my experience with 4 WH sticks so far. Every single one has needed to be pulled apart, have the ring replaced, and be thoroughly cleaned and re greased properly. Even after that it's still a crappy gimbal IMO, but at least it works.

 

 

Now simply Google VKB/Virpil sticks and have a look at how their internals/gimbals are constructed. Much better design, massively improved materials, etc etc etc.

 

 

 

The one thing that TM does have is a nice metal WH/Cougar stick. The metal stick/buttons are well built and sturdy - it's just the heart of that stick/system, the gimbal, is crapola. And good luck getting support after your 1 year warranty is up, and even before, it's been my experience that it is a major PITA to deal with them. Exact opposite experience with Virpil, VKB as well, although I've not needed them for much other than software explanation. Virpil my only issue was minor and just a connector that had been installed the wrong way or been twisted backwards by customs. Still, I've had Virpil within 3 hours inside my PC fixing software issues after filling out a ticket.

 

 

 

IMO if you want a great setup for the upcoming F16, get yourself a WH or Cougar stick, and a Virpil Warbrd base. The feeling with stock springs/cams and a metal TM stick is absolutely perfect, and your entire stick portion of the hotas is 90% metal. Good times. Then get a Cougar throttle and mod it with the sensors/parts available here. That's what I've done at least.

 

Thank you Gman, I never thought to do that until now. I will research the Warbird base and then see what I can find for my Cougar throttle in terms of sensor/parts to limp it along in the hopes TM re-releases an improved version. Thanks again.

[Swift.]

How does the Warbird feel around center?

 

I just changed from TM gimbal to Warbrd, and I would say that after a few hours of adjustment the Warbrd is very satisfying to use. The centre detent on the soft centre is so subtle that you can manipulate the stick around this point with only 2 fingers. The way in which the tension increases towards the edge makes it very easy to achieve a desired g force by feel alone. If you can afford it I wholeheartedly recommend the Warbrd.

[Gman109]

Rel4y is the guy you want to contact here about TM Cougar throttle parts/upgrades. Very simple and inexpensive to turn your Cougar throttle into something fantastic (including USB mod).

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

 

This is the way to go IMO - even IF TM comes out with a new F16 like throttle, this type of upgrade(s) will probably still be pretty competitive with that IMO.

 

 

Regarding the Virpil WarBrd with the TM Cougar/WH stick - it's very accurate around the center, I'll usually put a 1 or 2 deadzone in my DCS stick settings axis mod for both roll and pitch, just to minimize and accidental bumps which will affect autopilot/whatever. With that setting and the Virpil stick software set to stock everything, I can draw incredibly accurate pictures with the stick, only the T50 and VKB Gunfighter can do the same. Getting beads on targets when fighting guns is how I judge a stick (I've played Warbirds and Aces High for 22 years now), in DCS as well, and the best option I've used (I have every Hotas out there, and then some), I prefer this setup for DCS (Virpil WB base with a TM WH/Cougar stick). Very, very accurate in terms of getting that xhair on the target for guns attacks.

[BuzzU]

That sounds good. I figured it would be an improvement.

 

I wasn't aware you had to use their software. You can't plug and play and use the DCS control menu to setup the stick? What about flying the A-10C? It won't be programmed like the TM stick?