Valve Index Hands On

[atvindr]

Hey, so I'm a weirdo that likes to use the CV1 touch controllers in casual environments to manipulate aircraft. It's not a decision maker/breaker since I'm already pre-ordered up on the Index but how's the support for vive wands right now for DCS? I've been on and off searching for up to date information but can I expect some amount of control with the Index controllers?

[Supmua]

I've had an email that says i need to update my address by the 14th so expect delivers not long after that.

 

I think PPD is not reduced by the extra FOV in the case of the index.

 

 

 

Yeah I got similar email. My hunch is that the first batch will ship by the end of June (IRC, the Steam website said June 28th when I preordered).

[Supmua]

Hey, so I'm a weirdo that likes to use the CV1 touch controllers in casual environments to manipulate aircraft. It's not a decision maker/breaker since I'm already pre-ordered up on the Index but how's the support for vive wands right now for DCS? I've been on and off searching for up to date information but can I expect some amount of control with the Index controllers?

 

 

 

Support for Vive wand is decent, regular orientation+trigger for left click and flipping the wand around+trigger for right click.

 

I’m sure you could tweak the Index controllers to do extras.

[Vullcan]

Seems like maybe that piece of dev hardware was a little rough around the edges, nearly every preview rates the Index higher than the Rift S in several categories (visuals, ergonomics, audio, controls, etc). Specifically they go on to state that while it doesn't have the best specs in every category on paper, together they combine to make the most polished and enjoyable VR experience to date. And its not a WMR headset... are you sure you tried the Index?

 

Oculus home is a better experience, yes, but having Facebook spyware on your PC + purchasing games in their walled garden is hardly ideal.

 

Steam VR isn't difficult to use at all (its just not as polished and user friendly as Oculus Home) and I'd wager a lot of people already have a library full of steam games anyway.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Vullcan

[fearlessfrog]

.. but you are forgetting that you must use the temperamental Windows Mixed Reality and Steam VR to get it working.

 

.. and you don't have to fiddle with WMR and Steam VR, which right now, is just not as good as the Oculus dashboard.

 

The Valve Index doesn't use Windows Mixed Reality (WMR), as Valve would just use SteamVR (of course).

 

It doesn't sound like you've been testing an Index? Perhaps something else?

[atvindr]

I’m sure you could tweak the Index controllers to do extras.

 

 

Cool, that was my plan given I'm sure 'native' Index support will probably take a while, thanks

[fearlessfrog]

Corrected. Thank you Vullcan.

 

(They had WMR open in the background when last I was fiddling with the Index a few days back. That said, Steam VR, while not bad, is not as easy to use as the Oculus dashboard (Cliff House).)

 

A personal preference I think, I much prefer SteamVR rather than Oculus, but to each their own. A lot of it is what we got used to first and know best.

 

Perhaps the unfamiliarity with SteamVR meant it wasn't set up correctly (the SteamVR defaults on the dev Index are not ideal out of the box), or with WMR software running causing confusion?

 

Anyway, I think the real feature of the Valve Index is the 144 Hz refresh rate, the lens / IPD adjustments for long time use, and especially the hand controllers - not a perfect fit for sims.

 

For DCS and sit-down sims in general, people are probably best looking at the HP Reverb (on the high end, i.e. 1080+ GPUs) for the resolution, or if below that sort of sim system hardware level, then the Rift S is great as a budget/good value solution.

[Supmua]

I’m amazed you could write confabulating multiple articles like above on an unreleased (to the public) products. Let’s just reflect on it and wait until it is really out with optimized drivers etc. before slamming the hammer on the poor thing.

 

I doubt very much that the FPS would be 20-30 with my set up in the final version, when people with 9900/2080Ti are getting 40+ on the HP Reverb, and when I can get higher on my Vive Pro which sports similar resolution.

[Wicked.-]

While I don't have one, the FSSB makes the Warthog like the Real Viper stick. It's force sensing and only moves a quarter inch in the actual jet. Realsim has made them for years for the Cougar and Warthog. I have the TUSBA for my F-16 Cougar TQS.

[Nagilem]

Interesting findings.

 

I have not seen the reverb or the index yet but I do own an o+ that had the same resolution panels as the index in pled.

 

First, I have run the o+ with every pd up to 2.1 and personally have found no discernible difference in image quality above 1.3 pd. Maybe that is different with other headsets. But the clarity tops on the o+ at 1.3.

 

At 1.3 with the other settings in the medium to low mode and object distance set to extreme I get 45 FPS (with motionvector on in steamvr) in Sochi and Dubai. Reprojection is the only way I have found to get dcs butter smooth. Without it I get 60fps average and a jittery mess when I make any aircraft movements. I have a non ocd 2080ti with an i9 9900k.

 

The index and the rift s have similar resolutions and should perform similarly at around the same pd. The rift may have slightly lower pixel counts but I would still think there is a similar point of diminishing returns in image quality at or around 1.4 pd. Each unit can only display so many pixels period.

 

@aa I can totally understand your preference for oculus software. Never tried it myself but the WMR steamvr config is clunky at best.

 

I’m not a fanboy for any product and they all have strengths and weaknesses. I do not like the lack of good sound and lower res on rift s so I went with hp and valve. I’ll post what I find when both headsets come in. I suspect I will like the hp better but want to try both before choosing.

[Nagilem]

@aa - actually just went back to check it and found I AM WRONG! :)

 

I setup my SteamVR SS to 100% which renders each eye at 1424x1780

 

I then went into DCS and turned off MSAA and Anisiotropic filtering. Textures low with the exception of water at medium. Shadows all set to flat. Object distance and preload set to extreme and max respectively.

 

Quick results -

 

@1.3 jaggies everywhere

@1.5 better

@1.7 good looking view with minimal jaggies AND minor micro stuttering (once every 10-15 secs approx)

@1.8 slightly better than 1.7 but my performance starts to suffer. Micro and full on stuttering every 1-3 seconds during aircraft maneuvers.

 

My apologies sir. It does look much better @ 1.7 than 1.3 with MSAAx2 to me. I tested over Sochi in free flight to keep in line with my other testing. I must have either not liked it with MSAA on since that seriously stutters or just mis-remembered my testing from a month ago. Either way - Cheers!

 

Base calcs suggest I am pushing ~13.3m pixels total @ 1.7pd

Edited June 8, 2019 by Nagilem

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

I have never seen a FSSB R3 Lighting Base Supmua and what is a TDC mod? If you do not mind, could you post a pick of your Warthog Stick. That would be cool to see!

 

 

 

I’m now on vacation in Japan (the cleanest place on earth btw, have not seen a single trash outdoor or anywhere), can post pics next week when back in the US. TDC mod is deltasim’s slew.

 

Btw, I do own a few Rolex’s lol. Let’s just focus on the Index in this thread, instead of the Rift S which has its own forum or other topics.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Supmua

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

 

Just came across this hands on video, a very good demonstration of what the Index controllers can do. They were using the 120 Hz mode.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Supmua

[Waxer]

As is no doubt becoming apparent, having the most ambitious hardware is not at the moment where the sweet spot of VR and DCS is at. Because of the limitations of what one 2080 Ti card can push in terms of pixels to your VR headset, ambitious models that offer huge resolutions (like the Pimax 5K) or high refresh rates (like the Index) don't really mean much.

 

The attractor (as we would say in an intermediate differential equations or dynamical systems class) is the quality of pixels that you can push at about 1080 to 1440. Go over this range with DCS and you have to drop settings or pixel density. Go below it, and you can run everything above 60 Hz. It is the quality of what a VR HMD manufacturer can present in this middle range that determines the best VR experience with DCS as things stand currently (and likely will for the next few years). That is why the poor on paper Rift S is actually doing very well against the much better on paper Index and Pimax 5K. Those latter two lie outside the attractor subspace, if you catch my drift. The LCD lens on the Rift S does surprisingly well with the ceiling that one 2080 Ti graphics card can provide.

 

The person or firm who expands that subspace, say, with an API that allows multi-gpu support is what will allow the ambitious but currently under utilized platforms like the Index or Reverb or Pimax to really flourish with DCS (and other intensive VR applications).

 

Your series of posts has been very useful: thank you. I was considering Valve Index, HP Reverb and Rift-S. While I am able to spend more for better results, if a RTX 2080 Ti, nor SLI can't drive higher specifications I am better off not being too ambitious with the VR technology. The Rift-S seems to be a "best-of" existing technology choices rather than trying to push the envelop in any new direction (with the exception of Pentile to full RGB screens which is costless from a GPU overhead perspective). Ideally I would like to see a manufacturer do away with Fresnel lenses too and produce something higher quality.

[nrosko]

How are you running anything at 2.2 pixel density? I can't even run oculus home on my rift at that setting it actually breaks asw. Sure you have a 2080ti that maybe 30% better than my card but you are running dcs at 2.2 without lowering your gfx settings and you are running a smooth 40fps before the recent patch? That's impressive.

[RedeyeStorm]

AuriliusAugustus

 

MaybI ask what your ipd is? Mine is 70 and I am seriously concerned about the fixed ipd of the reverb. Do you have any commends on which set Rift S, Reverb or Index would yield acceptabel results?

[nrosko]

I have never noticed any problems with 'breaking' asw. With my EVGA FTW3 2080 Ti card, I get around the high 20s to low 30s with most things in DCS set to high and a pixel density of 2.0. At a PD of 2.2, I get about 24 to 29 FPS. (This is for most planes and most maps. In certain places, like the Hornet over Dubai, I can drop as much as 20%.)

 

I do know that many have reported problems though with 16 GB of memory that those with 32 GB and higher do not experience.

 

ok so not 40fps my mistake. But why run it at such low fps 24-29 ps in vr is just egh?

 

Surely you want to be getting much higher fps especially with your system?

 

Index is natively higher resolution than the Rift-S, you are running the index at 1.5 you do not specify if this is set in dcs & don't mention if you have the automatic scaling off in steam but just seems excessive to me.

Regardless i'm not expecting miracles with this headset & be running at 144hz more like at 80hz with dcs. But i have 100s of other games i'm not just playing DCS. I use driving sims much more than DCS. Reports have been very positive with Project cars 2 for example.

So the Index is really the best all round headset that's why i'm paying more for the controllers & tracking as obviously those things do not matter in DCS but they do in many other games.

I assume you play other games too or is that second 2080ti just to keep the other one company? I mean you should really understand why people want to buy the best headset & spend a bit more for it considering the diminishing returns of your gpu setup?

[Svsmokey]

The two 2080 Ti cards I have in my home system were given to me for free by a technology grant that my university has with Nvidia's gpu compute research group. I use the cards to compute neural network topological projections. If I had to pay for them like most folks, I would have just stuck with my 1080 Ti. The 2080 Ti cards average about ~ 30 to 35% more pixel pushing power but I am none too impressed. Before all the crypto currency mining fervor set in, you could purchase a 1080 Ti for $799 in the USA. Nvidia took advantage of the mining prices in 2018 when they introduced the 2080 Ti at a ridiculous $1400 price tag and claimed it was worth that much due to all the research that went into the ray tracing work. ..... Bullsh@! If you believe that, I have a nice beach home in Nome, Alaska I would like to interest you in. Seals and the odd polar bear, right outside your window. :)

 

As to the best headset to use bar none, it is a perceived value argument as I already mentioned. I think your argument about all your other games is neither valid nor invalid. It is precroprious. If you play only SuperHot and think you can truly see 120 Hz over 80 Hz, ... have at it. I think that the Index will provide an excellent experience, especially in games or sims that do not require the graphics load of DCS.

 

This place though, the DCS forums, is about VR with DCS. For the DCS sim specifically, the Index is not the best headset bc no graphics card yet made can saturate it that well. You mention my settings, .... my rationale is simple, I try to push everything but MSAA to the max and set a pixel density above 2 (so that I can read the cockpit instrumentation clearly). Plenty of fliers though in these forums are very happy to fly around at a pixel density of 1.3 to 1.5 with things turned down a bit to maintain higher frame rates. I think that is perfectly valid. If that is you and you believe the Index is worth $600 more than the Rift S or $700 more than the Odyssey Plus, I have no argument. It is only my opinion, and opinions are like, .... well, everyone knows, but from what I have seen directly with my own eyes, the Rift S at a pixel density of 2.2 and everything set to mostly max on one 2080 Ti card with upper 20s to low 30s FPS provides a better experience than the Index which has to be set to a pixel density of ~ 1.4 to achieve the same upper 20s to low 30s FPS. The Rift S is just better placed in the sweet spot of what one 2080 Ti card can push pixels wise.

 

One thing, I have not mentioned previously in any of my posts is the tracking cameras that the Index requires. Once I installed my Rift S at home and got to remove the 3 tracking sensors and their finicky cables taking up USB 3.0 slots I was a very happy camper. Is the Rift S built in tracking as good as the original Rift or Index? No, it is not. But it is 98% as good and that is more than fine for DCS in a tight dogfight online or using the headset in The Climb, Beat Saber and all the other games I have tried.

 

While i agree with much of what you say here , and much appreciate the info you have generally posted in these forums , i would like to point out that you have over-stated the difference in price (IF one only uses the headset for DCS or other flight sims , as i do) . The Index headset-only is but $500 , and a single lighthouse $150 , and that cheaper yet on Ebay as you can use older versions .

Personally , although i will probably end up with the Rift S , i still find the Index interesting if only as the new standard-bearer for quallity , a distinction the CV1 held , and one as yet the Rift S seemingly cannot claim .

Waiting on those DCS/Index reviews ....

[Svsmokey]

That came later . Few would deny that the CV1 was a quality-built product . And i have no idea about the "bandit" , you must have had a mis-spent childhood :)

[Svsmokey]

So how does the pre-order work ? Do i put the money in the Steam Wallet , and it is taken out on shipment ? Or is my card billed on shipment ?

[imacken]

Sure - All very minor but annoying nonetheless.

 

1. All of the splashscreens flicker and go in and out for all DCS - you get used to it, but it makes moving in and out of DCS feel unpolished and the flickering hurts my eyes.

 

2. Tracking is good mostly, but about every third or fourth time I go into DCS I lose my lean forward back axis on DOF and have to exit both DCS and SteamVR to recalibrate the HMD in WMR to get it back

 

3. Sun goes down, and my room gets dark, the WMR tracking starts stuttering, and I have to get the lights on in the room. This can also cause the item in #2, which means a reset of WMR to get things working.

 

4. The use of both WMR AND SteamVR makes the setup and config a bit cloogy; add in Nvidia and the settings in DCS and there are many places to configure the headset, which means time going through each, writing down what is set to allow for a known config when in the sim.

 

5. Inside WMR headsets, there is this sensor to know when you have the headset on. This activates your presence in WMR, and causes the mouse and keyboard to shift focus. When this happens, the mouse stops working in DCS VR cockpit. To get it back, you have to toggle with Win+y keys, which totally disrupts immersion. You can cover the sensor with some tape in the HMD, but I still occasionally get this and have to Alt+tab back to desktop to refocus back on my DCS vr session.

 

That covers the main points. Anyone else who has others, feel free to share.

+1. Just new to WMR with the Reverb, and all these items are very annoying. So clunky!

[Supmua]

So how does the pre-order work ? Do i put the money in the Steam Wallet , and it is taken out on shipment ? Or is my card billed on shipment ?

 

 

 

You don’t need Steam Wallet to preorder. If you have a Steam account just link your credit card and that’s it. It’s just like buying a regular game on Steam. I think they charge your credit card right away or almost right away for the Index (mine was already charged) which is different from software preorder.

[Pinello]

... And i have no idea about the "bandit" , you must have had a mis-spent childhood :)

 

 

[Johnny Dioxin]

So how does the pre-order work ? Do i put the money in the Steam Wallet , and it is taken out on shipment ? Or is my card billed on shipment ?

 

 

Usually you just reserve it. They send you an email confirming your reservation - with no obligation to actually purchase - and telling you when your reserved order will be available to buy.

 

From when they let you know the item is ready, you have 7 days to pay, or else the item goes back to stock for the next customer in line to buy.

 

as attached

Edited June 10, 2019 by Brixmis
screenshot added

[Nagilem]

Honestly, I am not surprised with AureliusAugustus' review of the Index FOR DCS. I don't expect the Index to be light years better than the o+ or even the Rift S for visuals in DCS because the rendering engine needs optimization, and we need better GPU options to drive the kind of pixels needed to make it look as good as possible IN DCS.

 

I think the reviewers are really referring to their experience with other games that aren't DCS and I'm sure will also look great in the index.