[REPORTED] Inconsistent accuracy between GP bomb types

[victorlima01]

Even though dumb bombs are used very rarely in combat nowadays because ROE typically require pinpoint accuracy and zero collateral damage, USN pilots practice a lot of unguided deliveries. According to a recent discussion in GB's discord, nowadays most rhino drivers favor auto delivery mode when rolling in and they sweeten up the solution during the run-in. This way they achieve very accurate bombing runs, but obviously not as consistent as they'd be with precision-guided munitions. In my opinion MK-82s do not reflect this level of accuracy in-game. Also, I find CCIP bombing much more accurate than auto-deliveries (in the F/A-18 in DCS). Might not be as realistic as what's being in today's Navy, but it usually gets the job done and is a ton of fun

[Eldur]

Well not really, there’s no reason CCIP should be more accurate. CCIP is using the exact same inputs and calculations as AUTO. Auto should be more accurate when given a precise aim point, generated by the TGP or WP designate.

 

 

Technically correct. The targeting solution should be as exact.

 

 

But well, you could always argue with wind, while we fly and do our testing in DCS standard conditions that don't even have a fraction of a fortnight per furlong of wind. But well, that was also the excuse for the M61 dispersion, or at least one of them.

 

 

 

CCIP gets more accurate because mostly, we'd drop quite late. But that's no excuse for 82s falling way short and 84 or 82SE falling way long while 83s are pretty much on spot. ED corrected the same error in CCIP a while ago IIRC, but apparently they didn't change it on AUTO.

 

 

The common misconception is that AUTO is for level delivery. AUTO is perfectly capable of diving delivery, I use it 99% of the time.

 

 

 

Another this. When all the 18 things were new, I tried to do toss lofting with AUTO, noticed the inaccuracies. Then I tried level, from 10k+ft, down to 1-2kft, still inaccurate, afterwards I made the same observation in dive attacks with AUTO which shouldn't be when CCIP is more accurate at the same time...

 

 

What is 'way too high'? I have zero knowledge about how precise dumb bombs actually should be nowadays, but the Norden M bombsight demonstrated a CEP of 75ft, and that was back in WWII.

 

 

 

Dropped from planes that don't even have anything remotely close to an FCS. And the computed impact point heavily relied on the data input. One tiny error there would result in a huge one down on the ground. They even had to convert IAS to TAS in their heads where the conversion is heavily dependant on the atmospheric conditions at the given time and specific location. No "magical" GS display or whatever.

[Harlikwin]

What is 'way too high'? I have zero knowledge about how precise dumb bombs actually should be nowadays, but the Norden M bombsight demonstrated a CEP of 75ft, and that was back in WWII.

 

Have actually seen bombing accuracy from b17s, watch some videos, read some AARs. It was minute of city accurate, not minute of angle.

[jojo]

Have actually seen bombing accuracy from b17s, watch some videos, read some AARs. It was minute of city accurate, not minute of angle.

 

Yep, target a rail road station or an harbour...destroy the whole city.:(

[vctpil]

Tested with Mk-83 (Several time, same results).

 

9000ft QNH, 6000ft AGL

Target 3033ft

QNH 29.77

Light wind

Diamond confirmed to be on target

 

Bombs fall far from the target and don't tell me is due to the wind, t° and so on. I am ok that the AUTO mode is not really accurate, but I can believe that is so inaccurate.

 

Edit : I forgot, after bomb release, the TTI indicate 99 !

Edited July 26, 2019 by vctpil

[Wizard_03]

Post a track with the controls indicator open, also are you using the ball and chain method with the hud to “confirm the diamond is on the target” or are you using a designated waypoint with precise coordinates? Because there’s gonna be a Huge difference in accuracy between the two. There’s no way you can assure the TD is on target at 6k with just the HUD.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Wizard_03

[vctpil]

Ok, I find something.

 

I have made all tests with the stable version. I made a quick test with the openbeta version, and the TTI indicate 22 and the bombs seems to fall at the correct point.

 

I cannot confirm that because I forgot to update the 476th objects (How stupid I am!).

 

So, I am going to do some tests tomorrow with the openbeta.

 

My initial question if the first post was : Is someone can confirm the AUTO bomb mode still inaccurate with the stable version ?

[vctpil]

Unfortunately, I have the same issue with the openbeta, but the TTI is correct.

 

Track attached.

No wind

sd QNH

9000ft QNH

6000ft AGL

Waypoint elevation set to 3033ft

 

I am using waypont designate. On the track, I can see that the diamond is on the target.

 

I was about to forgot to select the AUTO mode. So, from this track, is someone can tell me what is wrong ?

 

Thanks.

Test AUTO mk83.trk

Edited July 27, 2019 by vctpil

[Wizard_03]

Alright so it wouldn't let me replay your track because you have mods installed, I just use vanilla OB. However I replicated your release conditions using a target waypoint, level release at .8M from 9k ft AGL with a light wind I used a shipping container as target at 33ft ASL.

 

I used Mk83s and Mk82s, the first 83 missed with about a 10ft lateral displacement from the target, second has a direct hit. The 82s by about 50ft with a horizontal displacement, both short and long respectively (I used Dives and Lofts for them). So no where near the misses your seeing, only what I would call reasonable inaccuracy given those parameters. So IDK whats wrong with your passes, my guess is either you have:

 

1. Junk Coordinates

2. Broken Install

3. Bad Technique

 

One, All, or any combination of those. Your right, however they shouldn't be that inaccurate, they certainly aren't for me.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Wizard_03

[vctpil]

I have made a comparaison between the mission editor coordinates and the coordinates displayed on the DDI, and there are exactly the same.

 

I tried a repair already, no change.

 

Bad technique ? Flying level and pushing a button when the cue is appearing is not so difficult. And I look some video about the AUTO bombing mode. I don't think my technique is poor. That's why I upload a track.

 

The only mod I have is the 476th objects.

 

Unless someone show me my error, the AUTO bomb mode is definitely still bugged in OB in my opinion.

Edited July 27, 2019 by vctpil

[Wizard_03]

So I'm not trying offend you I'm just trying to help, I don't have the same problem at all, and ED marked this as correct. Beyond my suggestions there's nothing else I can do, So I'm sorry that's happening for you and good luck.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Wizard_03

[theinmigrant]

I do have the same problem. AUTO mode isn't accurately modeled IMHO.

 

Me and my friends talk about this often.

[vctpil]

Hi Wizard,

 

Don't worry, thanks for your help, sorry if I feel upset but saying correct as is and showing that's not correct is something I don't really understand.

 

I would interested to have the opinion of Ed about my track file.

[KTFBGB]

Hi Wizard,

 

Don't worry, thanks for your help, sorry if I feel upset but saying correct as is and showing that's not correct is something I don't really understand.

 

I would interested to have the opinion of Ed about my track file.

 

Maybe @Nineline will see this. However, if they have deemed it No Bug maybe not.

[ShalashakaDS]

ED could at least comment, I mean, someone took the time to label this thread, it would be nice to at least give a more concrete answer to those findings this issue.

[vctpil]

+1

[Doum76]

I do have the same problem. AUTO mode isn't accurately modeled IMHO.

 

Me and my friends talk about this often.

 

 

Anyways Auto mode for dumb bombs are not really meant for precise strike from what i remember readings, not for for a standing tire in middle of many circles or single trucks, but more for bigger targets, like hangar, buildings etc... Too many factors which can leads to a miss run for smaller targets. If you're dropping at least 2 mk-82's with a small interval, like 25-50ft and you still miss a truck or damage it inbetween both blast, you definately do something wrong.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Doum76

[theinmigrant]

Anyways Auto mode for dumb bombs are not really meant for precise strike from what i remember readings, not for for a standing tire in middle of many circles or single trucks, but more for bigger targets, like hangar, buildings etc... Too many factors which can leads to a miss run for smaller targets. If you're dropping at least 2 mk-82's with a small interval, like 25-50ft and you still miss a truck or damage it inbetween both blast, you definately do something wrong.

 

I know. I never tried AUTO to be for pinpoint strikes, I'm not one of those players that think a mk82 should hit an ant.

 

But as a pilot I would like to share what I think. And what I think is that if the bombs dropped in AUTO always miss their target by the exact same amount of distance and the exact same direction of the target, then the logic dictates that there is something wrong with the code. I hope I dont touch a nerve here or make ED angry, this is what I think, nothing else.

 

salute.

[vctpil]

And what I think is that if the bombs dropped in AUTO always miss their target by the exact same amount of distance and the exact same direction of the target, then the logic dictates that there is something wrong with the code.

 

Exactly the problem I have after a lot of tests.

 

I would like ED team do some tests as well, if time permit for sure, have a look at my track, and tell me what I am doing wrong.

 

Maybe this is bug that came back after an update?

[Deano87]

You’d certainly imagine that the Auto mode for each bomb type would be calibrated to the fall characteristic of each bomb, to make it as accurate as possible. Currently each different type of bomb consistently either hits long or short of the target.

 

Red kite does a good analysis of this problem at about 12:00 in this video.

 

[vctpil]

I saw the video several time, very interesting.

 

But he says that the mk82 is falling long, and there are falling very short in my tests, quitely the same position than the mk84 in the video (points red, 12:16).

Edited July 31, 2019 by vctpil

[Bankler]

ED: Here is a trk illustrating the issue. Mk82s in AUTO falls long almost every time. In one attempt out of eight, it was somewhere close to hitting the target. I used BALT autopilot and ATC to minimize the human factor.

 

I chose this track, as it shows that it's not a 100% repro that it falls long. Out of 8 drops, bomb number #3 hit the target, bomb number #8 was short, all the other 6 ones fell long. It's consistently inaccurate compared to CCIP, which doesn't make sense. Especially now when we have the Tpod to verify we're aiming at the right spot.

 

With all due respect ED, even if you don't prioritize this (which is fair enough, there are other more pressing issues) please remove the [CORRECT AS IS] label, because frankly it's almost an insult to the original poster and all the people who help you out with testing this stuff. The Red Kite video (12:00) posted above illustrates the issue quite well, and I guess he has some credibility considering you recommend his videos.

 

(If it's impossible to reproduce the problem on some dev computer, maybe try another to make sure it's not a framerate dependent bug?)

Mk82AutoMiss.trk

Mk82AutoMissTacView.zip

Edited August 1, 2019 by Bankler

[vctpil]

Maybe [iNVESTIGATING] ?

[flywaldair (Skynet dev.)]

In real life Auto bombing mode seems to be rather accurate with MK 82's. In this video the target is designated by radar. But at the end of the day that should amount to the same as a perfectly positioned point on the HUD.

 

I wan't a two seat hornet, just to hear the guy in the back getting of on my bombing skills :lol:

 

check 26:47

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by tigair

[Nealius]

This thread says AUTO bombing is [CORRECT AS IS], yet this thread acknowledges that AUTO bombing causes GBUs to go long....confusing....