Can KA-50 avoid detection?

[Fakum]

I fly multiplayer on the 104th. I typically take off to go find an enemy airbase or FARP and attempt to sneak up, setup, and pick away at air defenses. Problem is, 9 out of 10 times I take a half hour flight or so and wind up getting picked off by a Hornet or Tomcat before I make it to my sniper spot. I never see it coming! I have read that you should stay below 80 mph so you don’t get picked up on any kind of radar, then folks have said it doesn’t matter because the rotor blades are moving faster then that,,,,,,,,,, then I heard to stay low, less than 30feet etc.

 

Whats the real deal? Does it matter? Can you avoid detection of AWACS etc?

[3WA]

You're rotating blades look like a bonfire to a fighter's doppler radar.

 

 

You basically can't hide from anything with doppler.

 

 

The fighters are the worst enemy of the helicopter. They can look down and see you anywhere with their radar. And if you're going against A.I., you can forget hiding. They always seem to know where you are, radar or not. Even keeping cover from other helicopters and A-10, they always seem to know where I am. Just watch the tanks and other vehicles in outside view. Wherever you are, you can see their guns keeping track on you.

 

 

Only thing I have found that works against non-aircraft is to keep trees and buildings between them and me. That means flying NOE, about 5 feet above the ground. Use pop-up attacks with vikher and rockets. Nothing seems to work against aircraft. You just have to kill them before they can kill you. And the shkval has a VERY hard time locking up aircraft, especially fighters. This is why we need Igla V systems.

[Baaz]

You're rotating blades look like a bonfire to a fighter's doppler radar.

 

 

You basically can't hide from anything with doppler.

 

 

The fighters are the worst enemy of the helicopter. They can look down and see you anywhere with their radar. And if you're going against A.I., you can forget hiding. They always seem to know where you are, radar or not. Even keeping cover from other helicopters and A-10, they always seem to know where I am. Just watch the tanks and other vehicles in outside view. Wherever you are, you can see their guns keeping track on you.

 

 

Only thing I have found that works against non-aircraft is to keep trees and buildings between them and me. That means flying NOE, about 5 feet above the ground. Use pop-up attacks with vikher and rockets. Nothing seems to work against aircraft. You just have to kill them before they can kill you. And the shkval has a VERY hard time locking up aircraft, especially fighters. This is why we need Igla V systems.

 

Actually, that's not entirely true. Less than (if i remember correctly) 90 km/h, AI fighter aircraft will not see you unless at altitude.

 

Staying at or below treetop level is a must. that typically means 15m or less. If possible I will fly at 10m or less. As for AI ground (SAMs, Tanks, etc.) you're typically safe at 10m or less. No enemy tank, or ground unit will typically engage beyond 4km. So, if you use you're head, and more importantly your eyes, you can practically walk that Ka-50 right into the thick of things. You can stroll in to about 5km, put yourself in a hover, and take your time picking off anything you like. I love making it a point when the F-18s are up there wasting their HARMs to fly in low with the Ka-50 and kill them from up close.

 

Only against human opposition should you have a need to worry. If you know there's a human opponent close by, my recommendation is to land that girl and sit tight till friendly CAP clears the area.

[3WA]

Yeah, I know GTharos said something about A.I. ignoring you at low speed, but he also said it should be removed ( since obvious cheat :p). So, maybe they have. They come after me when I'm barely moving a few feet above the ground. I've been shot at by F-18 while in a hover, trying to aim a vikher at it.

 

 

Also, for anyone having trouble with hover, experimenting, I've found it kind of nice to just keep auto hover on all the time. That is, if your just prowling around slowly doing recon.

 

 

I'm starting to use it just like a regular AP channel at times.

Edited July 30, 2019 by 3WA

[M1Combat]

I recommend you don't use AH in almost all cases.

 

It's kinda OK in some situations where you're looking for ingress point to get to <10K... but as soon as you're within range of the enemy (Their range... not yours :) ) I think it's very dangerous to be stationary.

 

The problem is that generally you only need to worry about AA threats... and they're a smallish percentage of enemy assets on the table. When you're stationary though... you need to worry about ANYTHING that can reach you. That includes MBT's with or without missiles. They'll shoot you with the main gun if you're stationary long enough for them to range you and fire. They're pretty bad at hitting moving targets though... even slowly moving ones...

 

So...

 

Use AH occasionally to advance when you're checking the ABRIS map and stuff... but as soon as you think there may be a threat it's better to setup a slow "strafe" from cover to cover and fire while strafing. The cool thing about this is that when you need to put the Vikhr circle in the laser circle you can just do that and then let go of the controls and the AP channels will put you right back on your strafe.

 

To make this work... Keep a close eye on your VSI when you're slow and close to the ground. you may think this makes a good case for ALT hold at least... but it doesn't. You would begin your strafe behind cover, use a tree line or line of buildings or something placed between you and the enemy, then use the collective to lift above the cover, fire, track, kill, drop or fire more shots with about 5s separation if you have a platoon target. If you get a good at it, you can kill a whole platoon of tanks in one strafe, and not have to worry about return fire. You can often do this in auto hover too... sure... but you DO CERTAINLY have to worry about return fire from tanks.

[Ranma13]

In real life, the rotor blades will give the helicopter away. In DCS, this isn't modeled, so only the body of the helicopter is taken into account. If you're flying low and slow, there's a good chance you'll escape detection, both because you're a smaller target and because people in jets usually don't slew their radars that low. However, in multiplayer you're getting found because of AWACS and the datalink. You've probably noticed that nearly every MP map will be along the coast, so although you can hide from AWACS by ducking into a valley, that's really hard to do along the coast.

[Oceandar]

In real life, the rotor blades will give the helicopter away. In DCS, this isn't modeled, so only the body of the helicopter is taken into account. If you're flying low and slow, there's a good chance you'll escape detection, both because you're a smaller target and because people in jets usually don't slew their radars that low. However, in multiplayer you're getting found because of AWACS and the datalink. You've probably noticed that nearly every MP map will be along the coast, so although you can hide from AWACS by ducking into a valley, that's really hard to do along the coast.

This!

 

You've been found because AWACS DL. The only way to avoid this is to fly in the valley or behind a hill. On the flat terrain no matter how low and slow you're flying the AWACS most of the time will detects you even on the hover.

[BaD CrC]

To my knowledge, there are little to no public servers that are suitable to rw operations. Missions are thought for FW, and the RW is a later addition with no real thinking or knowledge of their operations. This is sadly not helping the development of DCS choppers as people quickly get frustrated by the kids taking down choppers in their f18.

[Fakum]

My thoughts exactly! I have NOT been able to do much on Multiplayer in quite awhile. The only chances I ever had is when I had CAP available over the TA. Most guys are flying fighters over Bullseyes just to tangle with the enemy. I was so excited to hear of the KA-50 Upgrades, but it is all kind of pointless to me now. Nothing like going thru startup and a 20minute + flight to get wacked in the butt with a missile. I am indeed frustrated.

[Harlikwin]

To my knowledge, there are little to no public servers that are suitable to rw operations. Missions are thought for FW, and the RW is a later addition with no real thinking or knowledge of their operations. This is sadly not helping the development of DCS choppers as people quickly get frustrated by the kids taking down choppers in their f18.

 

Frat sim is probably the best for helo ops that ive come across.

[falcon_120]

When i play in MP in both F18 and F15 i can tell you that copters dissapear from radar when they are low and slow, if you dont see them visually its very easy to go pass them. Some pilots land the helicopter when are warned of nearby fighters, in DCS if you land you are not detected by radar anymore, but its not easy.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

[Fri13]

In real life, the rotor blades will give the helicopter away. In DCS, this isn't modeled, so only the body of the helicopter is taken into account. If you're flying low and slow, there's a good chance you'll escape detection, both because you're a smaller target and because people in jets usually don't slew their radars that low.

 

While the rotor blades will give you away, they don't make you so easy target. As the helicopter main rotor is a jammer by itself that radars can't solve unless they are made to fiter everything else and concentrate to helicopters or low level flying objects. As the rotor is rotating, it has various speeds going to all directions, so you can't get a position nor velocity and so on heading from it. And flying low (below 100 meters) mass you to ground clutter.

 

The DCS doesn't simulate radar complex behaviors, why currently the fighters can spot helicopters way too easily and even target them when they shouldn't.

 

What fighters should be doing is to use their cannons and try to get a IR missile lock on the helicopter, why the hover is dangerous as the fighter has easy target to perform gun strafe.

 

It is not wonder why there is lots of science going on how to find a hovering helicopter in normal combat conditions (<100 meters) as the radars are not so good solving out such unique vehicle that are designed to find a fast moving fighters or large bombers at altitude.

[Fri13]

This!

 

You've been found because AWACS DL. The only way to avoid this is to fly in the valley or behind a hill. On the flat terrain no matter how low and slow you're flying the AWACS most of the time will detects you even on the hover.

 

https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/300960

http://www.radartutorial.eu/10.processing/sp16.en.html

https://www.iccs-meeting.org/archive/iccs2018/papers/108600140.pdf

[M1Combat]

I'm curious... Would Aim-120 HOJ work against a RW?

[Fri13]

I'm curious... Would Aim-120 HOJ work against a RW?

 

The missiles HOJ feature is not universal so the missile goes on any source that is generating jamming.

 

The key is that the jammer is listening what frequency etc the radar is operating and then it starts to work at that same frequency etc. And this way the jammer becomes a radar. And the missile was guided to the specific radar and so on the jammer is drawing the missile attention to itself.

 

And this is one of the things that more advanced jammers use for their purposes by copying the signal and transmitting the false information so the missile that is homing on that radar signature is now following a ghost.

 

So basic principle is that if the source is not operating same as the guiding radar, then HOJ doesn't work.

[Fakum]

Frat sim is probably the best for helo ops that ive come across.

 

Thanks for the tip on the Helo server. As I see it now, Im probably going to have to walk away from servers like the 104th, I love playing there, but I stand no chance in surviving under those conditions. Since most players are on blue side, I would stand a chance I suppose if the blue side had a worthy attach helicopter. I just spent just over an hour searching for PvP servers for Helos, most posts are years old. I will have to solicit else ware for updated server info. Almost a needle in a haystack

[M1Combat]

Well... Most of the pilots that are serious about winning understand the significant role a KA50 can play in taking a battlefield...

 

So get on comms on a server that has a GCI and let them know to pay attention to you and most will vector fast movers to protect you. They'll even use you as bait so you have to pay attention. A GCI is a SUPER effective tool in both keeping you alive and allowing you to maximize the potential of such a potent weapon.

[Fakum]

104th has a GCI often, and Im always on Coms. Problem is, the GCI is usually only on Blue side, KA-50 is only available on Red, but yeah, I get your point. Good luck to me finding a server that accommodates that most of the time. I think it is more likely to find a server that is geared more for helo operations instead. Not to mention often I jump on the server during off peak hours in addition to peak.

[BaD CrC]

The fixed wing kids started to look a bit more closely to choppers when the mistral version of the gazelle appeared. Suddenly, the ducks were growing some teeth. But the gazelle is not the most popular chopper. I have some hope with the BlackShark 3 able to shoot some Iglas. That way, CAS operations will benefit a bit more from a AA cover, including some IR warning. But again, on public servers, there is little will or possibility to really work as a pack.

[XtraChrisP]

.... But again, on public servers, there is little will or possibility to really work as a pack.

 

Therein lies the problem. If you can coordinate with some jet nerds to give you some top cover a pack of Sharks will make short work of any armored column. It's just hard to get strangers to play nice with you.

[Kappi]

Well, on BlueFlag for example there's no need for attack choppers. You have the F-18 on Red side, so there's not much tasking for the Ka-50. The helo work is limited to supplying fuel to airfields, setting up EWR and SAM sites and dropping troops.

[csdigitaldesign]

You are flying too high. If you want to stay undetected you need to stay under radar. Gotta use that terrain to hide! Also if there's a plane above you and pointed down at you.. yes you are harder for the radar to spot close to the ground but it STILL CAN pick you up. You gotta put terrain between you and it.. also flying very low makes it a LOT harder for them to visually spot you. I often fly all over without getting shot down because I'm not noticed very often. Don't give them ways to notice you. You won't live long if they do.

 

Yes you can avoid AWACS if low enough and there's obstacles in the way. Don't expect to stay off AWACS in the middle of a flat desert if it has a "line of sight" vector on you... meaning he could be far enough out to not see.. but radar can see better than eyes (duh). I often fly very low (less then 30 ft like you said) if I think there's little cover because it might still work. Speed has little to do with it really.. I mean, there's notching of course just like in a plane.. but even if you were flying directly at them or away from them it would be harder to see a low flying, much slower then a jet, helicopter on radar. But if you think they are trying to spot you on radar, notch it anyways because every little bit can help.

 

If you want an extreme example that this DOES work.. I've killed an SA-10 and SA-15 SAM site with a KA-50 many times before. They have such a large range you can't even get REMOTELY close enough with your weapons to kill it if you are at a higher altitude. They have a weakness, even if it's a flat desert. They can't scan lower then 10ft. Yes, I said 10ft. You have to literally HUG the ground as you get closer to it. The further out you are from it the slightly higher you can be. But my general rule of thumb is stay under 50ft at all times and as you start to get closer get VERY LOW. You have to fly that helicopter like it's a car driving on the ground just about. It works though. You can get close enough to take it out like that. Just do it at max range as they often have OTHER types of launchers that DO NOT have that 10ft height limitation but rather have a much more limited range (like a Tunguska)... and if you get to close those will still lock you and kill you easy.

Edited August 4, 2019 by csdigitaldesign

[csdigitaldesign]

I recommend you don't use AH in almost all cases.

 

It's kinda OK in some situations where you're looking for ingress point to get to <10K... but as soon as you're within range of the enemy (Their range... not yours :) ) I think it's very dangerous to be stationary.

 

The problem is that generally you only need to worry about AA threats... and they're a smallish percentage of enemy assets on the table. When you're stationary though... you need to worry about ANYTHING that can reach you. That includes MBT's with or without missiles. They'll shoot you with the main gun if you're stationary long enough for them to range you and fire. They're pretty bad at hitting moving targets though... even slowly moving ones...

 

So...

 

Use AH occasionally to advance when you're checking the ABRIS map and stuff... but as soon as you think there may be a threat it's better to setup a slow "strafe" from cover to cover and fire while strafing. The cool thing about this is that when you need to put the Vikhr circle in the laser circle you can just do that and then let go of the controls and the AP channels will put you right back on your strafe.

 

To make this work... Keep a close eye on your VSI when you're slow and close to the ground. you may think this makes a good case for ALT hold at least... but it doesn't. You would begin your strafe behind cover, use a tree line or line of buildings or something placed between you and the enemy, then use the collective to lift above the cover, fire, track, kill, drop or fire more shots with about 5s separation if you have a platoon target. If you get a good at it, you can kill a whole platoon of tanks in one strafe, and not have to worry about return fire. You can often do this in auto hover too... sure... but you DO CERTAINLY have to worry about return fire from tanks.

 

I disagree with this. at least in part. People just don't know how to make proper use of them. Certainly there are times where a AH is not a good idea... but you can use them more often then some people realize. It just takes more planning and thought to stay alive...and more patience to get out to a target because they are not fast.

[GGTharos]

Modern FCRs have no problem with detecting, tracking and attacking hovering helis, and when I say modern I mean the apg-70, as in 'that old'.

This was demonstrated in actual combat.

 

Most modern SAMs have no problem with this either. For them, problems occur or should occur specifically due to disruption of the signal by things they hide behind. Even if that's not quite enough, it could cause issues for missile fuzes etc.

 

DCS provides fake protection for helis with the missile tracking floors and lack of rotor blade return.

 

While the rotor blades will give you away, they don't make you so easy target. As the helicopter main rotor is a jammer by itself that radars can't solve unless they are made to fiter everything else and concentrate to helicopters or low level flying objects.

[choco8]

Google J Catch

 

Modern FCRs have no problem with detecting, tracking and attacking hovering helis, and when I say modern I mean the apg-70, as in 'that old'.

This was demonstrated in actual combat.

 

Most modern SAMs have no problem with this either. For them, problems occur or should occur specifically due to disruption of the signal by things they hide behind. Even if that's not quite enough, it could cause issues for missile fuzes etc.

 

DCS provides fake protection for helis with the missile tracking floors and lack of rotor blade return.

To offer just an another pin.

Check out J-Catch. Live RW vs FJ exercise back in the day. Tech has moved on but i’d argue weapon loads are reduced on jets so still applies.

 

I’m only getting back into DCS again since buying a new computer and loving it so no idea of the MP situation. But in short if FJs are finding and killing helis it is because they have no other threat to worry about so the RW is screwed. Ideally GBAD or your own Fj should be keeping them busy.