Best AI fighter for BFM training

[Pochi]

Hi,

 

I am just beginning learning air combat maneuvering with the F14. I really have no experience and play single player only. My understanding is that DCS AI behavior is quite uneven, some jets performing more realistically than others.

I wonder what is the consensus regarding which type of jet AI got the more realistic behavior? For now I only fought against Mig23 adjusting their level and number in the Mission Editor.

Any advice?

 

Also, what is the best way to set up a fight if I want to dogfight using Aim9 rather than Gun?

 

Thanks for help,

 

Pierre

[stuart666]

I thought the F16 behaves reasonably realistically.

[vadupleix]

FC3 planes all have reasonable AI I think (SU27 AI is very weak so you may want to use SU33 instead)

If you want some challenge, Mirage 2k, MiG19 and MiG15 can be the most dangerous opponents. Prop planes can be another challenge.

For Fox 2 fights, if you don’t want a head on shot from AI before merge, just place the two aircrafts to spawn within 1nm of each other (with some horizontal separation of course)

[stuart666]

We so need a Zero. :(

[captain_dalan]

It rather depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to develop versatile and genuine BFM skills, then probably no AI is going to help you. The reason is, even the most unrealistic AI jets in DCS fight in a very predictable manner, so the only hard thing about them really is the difference in performance (in other worlds how much they cheat with their FM). So the best way to learn BFM is to fight other people online. If that is not currently possible, or you don't feel like you are ready for it yet, then aside from fighting AI's, you also might want to do some aerobatics. Practice flying the jet dangerously. Snap turns, edge of stall (both loaded and aerodynamic), high g's, hammer heads.....

 

That being said, if you goal is to get good against the AI, then my own scale for enemy AC, in order of difficulty (weakest to strongest) is:

-Su-27 (a sitting duck esentially)

-F-15

-M2000

-Su-33

-F-18

-MiG-21 (this is where the things get harder, hard to spot, impossible excess power properties)

-F-5 (can be a really tough fight, arguably the hardest in the game, also hard to see and even more over powered then the MiG)

-F-16 (only slightly harder then the F-5, but also easier in some ways)

-MiG-29 (very similar to the F-16, but with better kinetic performance at the expense of being easier to spot)

 

Disclaimers:

-All AI fights are assumed to be at the hardest pilot skill set

-i haven't flown against some of these planes in some months, so thing may have changed

[Bearfoot]

It rather depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to develop versatile and genuine BFM skills, then probably no AI is going to help you. The reason is, even the most unrealistic AI jets in DCS fight in a very predictable manner, so the only hard thing about them really is the difference in performance (in other worlds how much they cheat with their FM). So the best way to learn BFM is to fight other people online. If that is not currently possible, or you don't feel like you are ready for it yet, then aside from fighting AI's, you also might want to do some aerobatics. Practice flying the jet dangerously. Snap turns, edge of stall (both loaded and aerodynamic), high g's, hammer heads.....

 

That being said, if you goal is to get good against the AI, then my own scale for enemy AC, in order of difficulty (weakest to strongest) is:

-Su-27 (a sitting duck esentially)

-F-15

-M2000

-Su-33

-F-18

-MiG-21 (this is where the things get harder, hard to spot, impossible excess power properties)

-F-5 (can be a really tough fight, arguably the hardest in the game, also hard to see and even more over powered then the MiG)

-F-16 (only slightly harder then the F-5, but also easier in some ways)

-MiG-29 (very similar to the F-16, but with better kinetic performance at the expense of being easier to spot)

 

Disclaimers:

-All AI fights are assumed to be at the hardest pilot skill set

-i haven't flown against some of these planes in some months, so thing may have changed

 

Agree with this completely.

 

I think that there is some overlap between flying skills learned fighting AI and multiplayer, and definitely it's a good place to start. Especially to build up an understanding of the basic aerobatic components of BFM and the limits of your aircraft as well as skills such as spotting (which, IMHO, is 50-75% of the fight!). However, from a tactical perspective, the fact is that all the AI typically does is an infinite series of loops. So: (a) they are predictable; and (b) you really are not exposed to, or develop skills to counter/overcome, any other gameplan. The differences in the various AI aircraft are less to do with being more realistic, but rather better or worse (artificial/unrealistic) performance. The tougher ones definitely give you a workout!

 

So my suggestion is this: fly both SP/offline and online. Don't do what I did --- wait and wait and wait and wait to get online, playing SP until I felt comfortable enough, and then get online and get creamed.

 

Instead, start off right away with a mix --- e.g., 50% SP and cap off the week/session by some MP online fights. This will allow you to recognize the differences between how real humans fly/fight and how the AI does, as well develop the basic skills in the ego-safety of SP, and maximize cross-application of skills.

 

1. Set up some SP missions. Fly these for the first 50% of your weekly flight hours. Maybe more (e.g. 80%) until you are comfortable with the aerobatic and basic principles. But definitely not exclusively.
   
   • In each, start off with two aircraft 10-15 nm apart, at co-altitude, headed toward each other. One aircraft is assigned to PLAYER, the other with skill level at the highest. Both aircraft at 75% fuel, no bags/missiles.
     
   • The ranking captain_dalan gives above is great --- start with the easiest and work your way up for adversaries. You can actually get a little easier than the "Su-27": e.g., the Su-17.
     
   • You will eventually move from being confused and not knowing what is happening and getting shot to generally having the initiative most of the time (owning the angles) though maybe not quite able to shoot the other down without difficulty to being able to do so with ease.
     
   • Spotting and keeping eyes-on will be the biggest challenge, especially as you fly VR. You are going to need to decide whether you want labels or not. My advice: train the way you plan to fight. If your MP server has labels, by all means keep labels on. Other keep labels OFF. Labels ON is not just a "helper". It is a totally different way to fight/fly.
     

 

[*] Get on an MP server. At least some of the time. 50% if you can. Maybe 20% to start with. But spend as much time as you can here preferentially.

• I suggest "Just Dogfights".
  
• Get your a$$ handed to you in the first 5 seconds of an engagement.
  
• Take the knocking to your ego.
  
• Choose another slot.
  
• Repeat.
  

Eventually, your engagement times will increase. And soon (ok, maybe not so soon), you will be swatting others out of the sky like flies.

 

 

Cycle between SP/MP. As your skills improve in SP (and the fights become more and more easier), transition to spending more and more time in MP.

 

I HIGHLY recommend the Just Dogfights server. It is perfect for this. And fun.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Bearfoot

[*Aquila*]

I strongly agree with the two posts above. Thanks a lot to captain_dalan and Bearfoot. And it's a matter of fact : fighting against AI is obviously useful but AI is very predictable. Human adversaries are not. Even when a human opponent does a mistake, it can surprise you to death because it was unpredictable. So go online as soon and as often as possible.

[beppe_goodoldrebel]

I guess the F5 because of the OP AI and it's hard to spot.

[Pochi]

Thank you very much to all of you for your inputs!

 

I guess I have a road map now to my BFM journey :thumbup:

 

Pierre

[captain_dalan]

Thank you very much to all of you for your inputs!

 

I guess I have a road map now to my BFM journey :thumbup:

 

Pierre

Always a pleasure mate! :thumbup:

[Gwalker99]

I saw a vid on youtube where a real life fight with F16's and the F16's ate the 14's so easy..

[westr]

I know this is an old thread but I flew a 1v1 against the new F4e at ace level in my F14a and boy did he make a good fight of it. I eventually managed to get him slow then dropped onto his 6 o clock but then he went into a rolling scissors manoeuvre and made it so difficult for me to gun him. This fight went on for a long time I eventually just waited for him to cross my path and just held down on the trigger and he flew into my stream of bullets but I couldn’t get the pipper on him. Best fight I’ve ever had against ai including all the WW2 modules. 

[captain_dalan]

5 hours ago, westr said:

I know this is an old thread but I flew a 1v1 against the new F4e at ace level in my F14a and boy did he make a good fight of it. I eventually managed to get him slow then dropped onto his 6 o clock but then he went into a rolling scissors manoeuvre and made it so difficult for me to gun him. This fight went on for a long time I eventually just waited for him to cross my path and just held down on the trigger and he flew into my stream of bullets but I couldn’t get the pipper on him. Best fight I’ve ever had against ai including all the WW2 modules. 

Have you tried that same bandit settings against another AI flown plane, like MiG-21 or F-5? 

EDIT: i mean as in AI VS AI

Edited May 25, 2024 by captain_dalan

[westr]

Yes flown against F5 but didn’t get the same sort of fight. The fight against the F4 felt as though he was fighting for his life I was quite impressed considering it is ai. I find the ai mig21 is over performing maybe. I find my F4 doesn’t stand a chance even in the vertical. 

[captain_dalan]

Yeah, makes sense. I was wondering if things have changed since the last time i ran missions like that, but apparently it hasn't  

[FR4GGL3]

I haven't tried die F4. But the most fun for 1v1 are the F-16 and in my opinion a tad more the MIG-29. The F-16 can easily be tricked to a situation where it runs straight away. The MIG 29 fights a bit more. The SU-27 does the Breakdance all day long. Also kinda fun. But in a weird way.

After all it is only AI. Will try the F4.