Tips for making a level turn and trimming with the Tomcat

[draconus]

Just now, BMO said:

I only know messed up HUD´s from excessive G.

Well, the HUD is correct, it's INS that's broken and provide wrong data.

[Nealius]

4 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

The last part I'm still a HUD cripple for relying too much on the FPM to get the lineup right.

Come to think of it, I only use the HUD to see how far out of on-speed I am so I don't overdo the trim inputs, and for ICLS glideslope between the 90 and the groove, as my grooves tend to be about 2~4 seconds longer than they should, thus screwing up the altitude numbers a bit. From the groove my eyes are bouncing between centerline, donut, and ball with no cognizance of what the FPM is doing. 

[Victory205]

How are you HUD cripples going to land the F4J/S on the ship?



 

[MAXsenna]

How are you HUD cripples going to land the F4J/S on the ship?



 

Blind folded!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Bremspropeller]

[Top Jockey]

3 hours ago, Victory205 said:

How are you HUD cripples going to land the F4J/S on the ship?



 

 

Been there, done that (as an armchair sim pilot, obviously), a few years ago.

The sim was: Strike Fighters 2: North Atlantic (with the Tomcat) and some other mods / add-ons for the F-4 Phantom II also.

Certainly in the F-4's case ... without any velocity vector / flight path marker symbol whatsoever to help.

Some quick interesting recall, the Phantom seemed to 'woble' less than the Tomcat (regarding pitch and roll), somewhat more stable, when approaching to land on the Carrier.

Regarding your recomendation to turn off the HUD for Carrier Landing in DCS:

- well, that is the situation where one discovers for the first time how over-dependent he is on the velocity vector ;

- already did it the first time you suggested it some years ago or so, if one pays attention to the several parameters, it can be done without much hassle ... but to consistently catch a wire is another story ;

- not nearly as easy as with the HUD and velocity vector symbol help; however landing aboard the Carrier with the HUD turned off, does give a sense of high accomplishment and connection with the F-14 Tomcat.

[Nealius]

I'm still confused by talk of over-dependence on the velocity vector. Or overdependence on the HUD in general. Just ignore it? Just because it's on doesn't mean you must pay attention to it.

[Top Jockey]

25 minutes ago, Nealius said:

I'm still confused by talk of over-dependence on the velocity vector. Or overdependence on the HUD in general. Just ignore it? Just because it's on doesn't mean you must pay attention to it.

 

I suppose when people mention that, it is in a context of: a real life pilot looking at (a majority?) of 'young' PC simmers who ... almost exclusively rely on the modern style HUDs to do everything, take-off, navigation and landing related.

Whereas, in more older jets, these technological helps (i.e. the modern HUD with projected symbols), didn't exist.

[JCTherik]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:50 AM, Nealius said:

Easily solved by lineup-AoA-ball scan. The HUD has nothing to do with it.

That's what I meant, I fly the ball and ignore the FPM in groove, or even switch off the HUD in groove

I'm talking about the entire pattern, marshall, initial, break, downwind, etc.

Say you're flying on-speed in landing config, downwind straight and level at 600ft. You have 4 options to keep altitude I can think of:

1. mk1 eyeball it

I don't think this is the way. I am in VR but I can't see a difference between 650ft and 550ft visually above the sea. Chair-of-the-sweatpants feedback doesn't help either, Maybe I can see the difference between 300ft and 1000ft, but the sea can be very deceiving. I am personally doubtful that it's possible to fly 600+/-50ft over the sea in sim or IRL without looking at the altitude at all, but I'd be very happy to be shown otherwise.

2. Baro alt/Radar alt steamgauges

They work, but I gotta keep staring at them if I want to catch slow and subtle deviations early, which means I'm head down in the cockpit and not looking out for traffic.

3. Baro alt/Radar alt + vertical velocity steamgauge

This would be great if it worked, I could put the airplane on 600ft and then zero out the vertical velocity. It doesn't work though, the vertical velocity needle has 4-5 seconds delay. It doesn't help to know that I was on 300ft/minute climb 5 seconds ago, I want to know what's my VV now. The confusing delay in the needle makes this almost worse than just radar/baro alt alone

4. Baro alt/radar alt  + HUD VV

I mean the vertical velocity on the left of the HUD that appears in takeoff and landing modes. I'm not talking about the FPM, screw the FPM. You called it the HUD VIS repeater. The HUD VV has a lot faster response than the steamgauge VV, I'd say it's pretty much instant. Plus it's right there where I also want to look at traffic, plus it has a rather nifty radar alt repeater on the right of the HUD too.

I'm not saying that this is the right way, I'm saying that the HUD instruments in DCS are objectively a lot more useful than the steamgauge ones. I've seen the FPM pegged to the side, but there seems to be a reliable instant vertical velocity in the HUD in landing and takeoff modes. And yet IRL pilots are saying that they weren't using it, Victory here is saying that it used to jitter, lag and break all the time, even the HUD VSI.

I think that's something that should be implemented then. If the real hud used to be useless, I don't get why we should get such a perfect instrument. 

 

On 11/8/2023 at 6:21 PM, Victory205 said:

Tiny adjustments result in performance changes in jets due to both higher energy states and simple vector state geometry. One degree of pitch has a higher value at the end of a velocity vector has a larger vertical resultant. 

 Could you explain that again?

 

Also, was the vertical velocity steamgauge as delayed IRL as it is in DCS?

[JCTherik]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:36 AM, Nealius said:

I only use the HUD to see how far out of on-speed

I find the AOA tape a lot better than the E-bracket, it tells you a lot more precisely how far you are from on-speed

[JCTherik]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:01 PM, Nealius said:

ust because it's on doesn't mean you must pay attention to it.

There is a thing to be said about the FPM. Regardless of where it is, it does drift up/down as a response to power changes a bit quicker than other visual clues. IRL you'd also feel that change in vertical velocity, in sim you don't. The closest you get to that quick of a feedback in the sim is the subtle FPM movements in your periferal vision. So it is a bit cheaty to leave it on, because it still gives you an info you'd otherwise not have in the sim, but it's also just overcoming the lack of chair feedback.

It would be great if the G head-bob got a bit more pronounced to show those subtle changes.

[Nealius]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:16 AM, JCTherik said:

I think that's something that should be implemented then. If the real hud used to be useless, I don't get why we should get such a perfect instrument. 

Because we don't get the necessary physical feedback to fly precisely with imprecise instruments. Just like how in real life we wouldn't hear the switches clicking but would be able to tell a switch was moved because of tactile feedback. Just how the shaking/buffet we have is exaggerated compared to real life. We can't black-and-white apply realism to an unreal environment, as it negatively affects playability. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Nealius

[draconus]

3 hours ago, Nealius said:

Because we don't get the necessary physical feedback...

It doesn't hold the water. Why would lagging VSI be simulated realistically on the gauge but not on the HUD?

It's a simulation and its goal is realistic representation of the simulated aircraft - both in sounds and graphics. In full fidelity study level people seek fun in dealing with any shortcomings the real pilot would face, be it imprecise instrument or loud noise. It's not about your comfort and easiness. It's the same thing when we cringe watching unrealistic Hollywood scenes. I don't want or need it here. There used to be game flight model in DCS - guess what? They finally got rid of it.

In current times you can have all the feedback you want in home: simshaker / jetseat, moving platform, VR HMD or large projected screens, VR controllers, haptic gloves, pedals, stick FFB, HOTAS, additional panels or even full pit replica... you can put on the helmet, suit, seat on the hard chair, even pee on it for the feel and smell, open machine oil can nearby... whatever you need. So it's on the user to provide the feedback you deem lacking in game, not on the devs to shove stand-in sounds and wrongly simulated instruments up our... whatever.

Edited November 16, 2023 by draconus

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

It's a simulation and its goal is realistic representation of the simulated aircraft - both in sounds and graphics. In full fidelity study level people seek fun in dealing with any shortcomings the real pilot would face, be it imprecise instrument or loud noise. It's not about your comfort and easiness. It's the same thing when we cringe watching unrealistic Hollywood scenes. I don't want or need it here. There used to be game flight model in DCS - guess what? They finally got rid of it.

Then make it an option instead of cramming it down others' throats from your high-horse. Your stance lacks rationality and moderation. This is not a zero-sum argument, and not everyone agrees with your extreme opinion.

Your bit about "comfort and easiness" is also a straw man fallacy. I talked about playability, as this is a game at the end of the day. Playabiltiy is not "comfort and easiness." Your premise about DCS's goal is also your own bias shoved into what DCS actually is.

  

1 hour ago, draconus said:

So it's on the user to provide the feedback you deem lacking in game, not on the devs to shove stand-in sounds and wrongly simulated instruments up our... whatever.

It's also not their job to shove in ultra-realism that makes the game unplayable for a large chunk of the customers. Do you have any self-awareness of the arguments you are making? 

You seem to think that there is a "correct" way to enjoy DCS, and only one way to enjoy DCS. There is not.

Logical fallacies and extreme, zero-sum "solutions" are where I stop wasting my breath on this discussion. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Nealius

[draconus]

20 minutes ago, Nealius said:

It's also not their job to shove in ultra-realism that makes the game unplayable for a large chunk of the customers.

I'd gladly hear about what realistic features make the sim game unplayable for so many.

[JCTherik]

On 11/16/2023 at 3:34 AM, Nealius said:

Because we don't get the necessary physical feedback to fly precisely with imprecise instruments. Just like how in real life we wouldn't hear the switches clicking but would be able to tell a switch was moved because of tactile feedback. Just how the shaking/buffet we have is exaggerated compared to real life. We can't black-and-white apply realism to an unreal environment, as it negatively affects playability. 

 

The hud is a very odd place to compensate for lack of motion feedback. Especially on the VSI, there's no physical feedback in IRL airplane that will tell you VSI. G, shake and acceleration, yes, but not VSI.

 

[Slant]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:17 PM, Victory205 said:

How are you HUD cripples going to land the F4J/S on the ship?

Like a boss, how else would you do it?

[captain_dalan]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:17 PM, Victory205 said:

How are you HUD cripples going to land the F4J/S on the ship?



 

We ain't! The F-4E doesn't land on carriers 

[Snappy]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:16 PM, JCTherik said:

 

 

 Could you explain that again?

 

 

to your question:

If you fly around straight and level in a Cessna at 80kts and then change your aircraft’s pitch attitude by 1 degree up or down the resulting  effect on your vertical speed will be less & slower than if you fly straight level in a 400kt fast jet and do the same 1 degree pitch attitude change.

I know you’re not flying 400 kts in the pattern, I picked more extreme numbers to illustrate.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Snappy

[Dragon1-1]

On 11/16/2023 at 8:26 AM, draconus said:

It doesn't hold the water. Why would lagging VSI be simulated realistically on the gauge but not on the HUD?

Because HUD code on the DCS side is ancient? This is probably the reason why the Tomcat's HUD is missing all the fun stuff the other gauges have, such as jitter and lag. I hope this can change when the Phantom comes out.

[draconus]

36 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Because HUD code on the DCS side is ancient?

I'm pretty sure HB can manage their module's HUD. Apparently it's not modeled completely correct yet.

[Dragon1-1]

It was mentioned as a big challenge for the Phantom's gunsight, so I'd expect that they can, but doing so is far from a simple matter.

[draconus]

I never suggested it's simple.

[PAIDtriot]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:35 AM, evolgenius81 said:

I know this is old but for posterity purposes, after I removed my curves from the Tomcat and added a little saturation so I only have 90% max input, my tomcat problems went away. This sounds counter-intuitive as I'm sure you wanted to deaden someof the input, but curves give the F-14 the opposite effect somewhere towards the middle of stick travel.  The Tomcat and some warbirds are the only aircraft I highly recommend NOT using curves with strongly suggest to learn to fly it without.  The issue with the curves is that it becomes wayyyyyy to easy to buck the plane now because it's too easy to hit that input speed ramp.  Small inputs are easier, but the sweet-spot is now smaller, and it actually becomes too easy to over-control the plane now and make her shake n quake and come apart.

I couldn't do an on-speed case-one trap for the life of me until I took the curves off.  Practiced for 12 hours straight on one Sunday, failed all but 1 lucky attempt that I did (the gamer way), and then the following day took the curves off and had no problem.

My other tip is to only adjust your trim on downwind leg only and not touch it after that.  From then on out use the DLC wheel/stick as that will practically turn the E bracket into a cursor that you can slide up or down to control your altitude/flight path.  If you need more time to trim out, make your initial break later so you have a longer downwind leg.  I find that with all my wings, boarrds, flaps, dlc, gear extended that she flies level and onspeed with throttles at or about the MIL line.

 

This WORKED for me to simply be able to fly the Tomcat in level flight.  I have the Virpil F-14 grip and VPC WarBRD base.  Tuning the X and Y saturation down to 90% for both PITCH and ROLL really helped!  I have a DEADZONE of 1 for PITCH and 2 for ROLL.  I also had to trim the RUDDER just a touch.  BTW, WHY isn't the RUDDER switch clickable in the F-14 cockpit?!?  Everything else on the throttle panel is clickable.

[draconus]

2 hours ago, PAIDtriot said:

WHY isn't the RUDDER switch clickable in the F-14 cockpit?!? 

Not implemented yet.