How HB AIM7M performs compare to ED AIM7

[Rabbisaur]

Hi, I tested HB AIM7M performance and compared it to ED AIM7F on F15C and AIM7MH on F18 with a simple test.

 

I set up a single AI fighter, random from SU27, SU33, Mig29, F14, F18 or F15, fly at M1.0 at 10000 feet. The AI fighter was set to CAP mission, evade threat.

 

I set up my own aircraft, 11NM head to head, at M1.0 and at 10000 feet to the AI fighter. It is an F14B with 4xAIM7M or an F15C with 4xAIM7F or an F/A18C with 4xAIM7MH (loft disabled)

 

I maintain air speed and altitude, STT the target, and launch one AIM7 at 9NM, repeat 10 times. The result is:

 

HB F14B AIM7M in normal mode (ACM cover unflipped): 1/10 hit. Hit rate = 10% P-STT(PAL)

HB F14B AIM7M in ACM mode (ACM cover flipped): 0/10 hit. Hit rate = 0% P-STT(PAL)

ED F15C AIM7F: 8/10 hit, Hit rate = 80%

ED F/A18C AIM7MH (no loft): 9/10 hit, hit rate = 90%

 

After launch, I kept lower than the target and maintained lock for the entire time.

 

I wonder why HB AIM7M perform so differently compared to ED AIM7F/MH? I mean no offense just wish to know 1) which one is more reasonable. 2) can we get access to ED ones on F14B just in case when we need them. For example in competitive PVP environment.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[S. Low]

I don't know if your test is true or anything, but anecdotally it has seemed to me that the Sparrow for the F-14 is near useless. Just last night I missed a Hind. Fired within range.....

 

Maybe I'm ignorant of missiles, but how does a Sparrow miss a hind? Edit: And just to get out ahead of this response - Yes I maintained lock.

[BonerCat]

Bumping for hopes that heatblur will notice!

[kievbsm]

+ from my side about it.

AIM-7M on F-15C brings into my count more frags compares with the same AIM-7M on F-14B.

 

Sometimes it seems to me that even visually it flies slower than the same, but from the ED and too easily loses any targegs (even a big transport airplanes).

[Gibo]

I do not made any test but I have the same imprtession for the poor performance of Aim 7/M in the F14.

In the Red Flag campaign there is a mission against the F15 with all aircraft armed with Aim 7/M; in this mission my Aim 7 always miss (fired from 10NM) while the F15's Sparrow are effective in the 80% of the engages. It looks like the Aim 7/M in the F15 are a lot more effective of the Sparrow launched by the F14

[Dudikoff]

Pardon my ignorance, but seeing the big discrepancy makes me wonder if there's really a need to have a separate HB AIM-7M anyway if ED basically has one already? Especially since it's a PD missile, so e.g. HB doesn't need its own model so it can support specifics of CW guidance as well (like e.g. the F variant needs to I guess).

 

I'd assume that the differences between the AIM-7MH and AIM-7M are pretty minor and could be easily adjusted via some missile parameters if necessary.

 

It could be tied to those Speed Gate switch options, but I'm not sure if that's functional in the game anyway?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Dudikoff

[S. Low]

Missed a mig23 last night that was on final approach to land. I never lost lock. I wasn't too close or too far. Oblique shot. It's a useless missile or I'm just bad with it.

[Katj]

It's a wvr missile against fighters as is, I don't know if that's right or not.

 

When shot at ranges of 1-2 miles I think it performs well, but I don't have any statistics.

[Rabbisaur]

Maybe HB AIM7M is going after chaffs too easily compared to ED ones. I wonder if the newly acquired missile guidance API can allow HB to improve AIM7M performance as well?

[kievbsm]

It's a wvr missile against fighters as is, I don't know if that's right or not.

 

We also have no idea which version of AIM-7M is more closest to real life.

It seems to me that the main idea of this thread that both realisations (from HB and from ED) should be the same.

 

When shot at ranges of 1-2 miles I think it performs well, but I don't have any statistics.

 

For this short range AIM-9 should be much better to use. :music_whistling:

[Katj]

We also have no idea which version of AIM-7M is more closest to real life.

 

It seems to me that the main idea of this thread that both realisations (from HB and from ED) should be the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For this short range AIM-9 should be much better to use. :music_whistling:

It has some advantages; I find it more resistant to CM, it has a larger warhead, etc.

 

It's mostly cold or flanking shots too. Hot you can shoot a bit further out, like 5 nm.

 

You can shoot at 10 nm, but it's strictly to make the opponent go defensive.

[S. Low]

From Wikipedia (quickest source):

 

"The most common version of the Sparrow today, the AIM-7M, entered service in 1982 and featured a new inverse monopulse seeker (matching the capabilities of Skyflash), active radar proximity fuse, digital controls, improved ECM resistance, and better low-altitude performance. It was used to good advantage in the 1991 Gulf War, where it scored many USAF air-to-air kills. Of 44 missiles fired, 30 (68.2%) hit their intended targets resulting in 24/26 (54.5%/59.1%) kills. 19 kills were obtained beyond visual range."

 

The 7M is the improved version. It should not be missing as much as it is.

[*Aquila*]

Combat stats don't say all about the missile itself, as conditions are often very different from one launch to another, including human mistakes.

 

I thought that Tacview files would help make sense of what has been written here. So I tried two different things.

 

Creating conditions similar as the OP's, I STT locked on an AI F-15C set as "excellent" and "evade fire" from the F-14B's RIO seat, while in pulse search mode (at Angels 10 for both planes, ground clutter isn't the problem but beaming is, that's why I avoided using PD search). ACM cover was unflipped. So:

 

- Case #1: 5 times, I shot one AIM-7M from the RIO's seat at 9 nm.

- Case #2: 5 times, I shot one AIM-7M from the RIO's seat at 9 nm and then let the AI F-15C maneuver to evade before firing a second AIM-7M from the pilot's seat.

 

Case #1: I fired 5 times 1 missile and scored 0 hit.

Case #2: I fired 5 times 2 missiles and scored 4 hits, 3 kills.

 

Interestingly, in case #2, 2 of the hits were scored by the first missile I fired, and in one case the second one also went on target. 1 of the hits (and kills) was scored by the second missile alone.

 

Attached archives : as a matter of fact, 01 contains case #1 files while 02 contains case #2 files.

 

[Edit] Corrected a mistake about hit counts

Fox-1-test01.zip

Fox-1-test02.zip

Edited October 15, 2019 by *Aquila*

[Banzaiib]

If you're below your target inside 10 miles and you fire an AIM-7, it should be all but impossible to notch the missile and lose lock if you are in P-STT (from the PAL LOCK). Right now the AIM-7 is acting like an SA-3 missile, which is easily notched inside 3 miles... i bet this gets addressed when the new missile SDK updates happen.

 

It's unfortunate too, because the AIM-7M was a really good missile IRL, especially when fired in the right conditions... i can't wait for the updates on missile guidance updates

[*Aquila*]

If you're below your target inside 10 miles and you fire an AIM-7, it should be all but impossible to notch the missile and lose lock if you are in P-STT (from the PAL LOCK). Right now the AIM-7 is acting like an SA-3 missile, which is easily notched inside 3 miles... i bet this gets addressed when the new missile SDK updates happen.

 

It's unfortunate too, because the AIM-7M was a really good missile IRL, especially when fired in the right conditions... i can't wait for the updates on missile guidance updates

I need to explain, for those not using Tacview, that during my tests, I never lost the lock. I just pushed my nose down after firing to avoid ground clutter being a problem.

[Xenovia]

Okay, phew. I thought I was the only one suffering from this problem.

[S. Low]

Ground clutter shouldn't be a problem regardless since its the 7M, according to the Interwebs. I don't know either way.

 

How does it make sense that your single shots were completely inaccurate, but the series with 2 shots improved the accuracy of the initial shot? I don't understand what's happening lol.

 

What I do know is that I'm not putting sparrows on my pylons

[Quadg]

5 shots is not really statistically relevant.

 

DCS needs the MMO tools to record the results of thousands of shots. to tune this right.

 

use the power of data mining.. its what free servers are for..

[*Aquila*]

I made another statistically irrelevant test with the Hornet, same conditions as above. Five times I shot one AIM-7M, scoring 5 hits and 5 kills. Tacview files in the attached archive.

Fox-1-test-Hornet.zip

[mattag08]

Works on my machine. I've seen numerous complaints about the 7M over the past few months, but everything seems normal on my end. The only time the missile is trashed is when I lose lock or the bandit kinematically defeats it. Just a rough guess is I probably have similar success to the stats posted above--60 to 70% hits with ~60% kills.

 

The AIM-7 has utterly garbage parameters. You have to be very close versus a manuevering target.

 

Related, does anyone know whether the real missile can reacquire the target if a lock is lost and then relocked?

Edited October 15, 2019 by mattag08

[Katj]

I usually play on the blue flag PG server, and some hornet drivers have said that they don't bring 120b's, they just take aim-7's instead.

 

Being a a tomcat driver myself I couldn't understand that given what I'd seen of the missiles performance.

 

It's finally dawning on me what's actually going on.

[Ignition]

Works on my machine. I've seen numerous complaints about the 7M over the past few months, but everything seems normal on my end. The only time the missile is trashed is when I lose lock or the bandit kinematically defeats it. Just a rough guess is I probably have similar success to the stats posted above--60 to 70% hits with ~60% kills.

 

The AIM-7 has utterly garbage parameters. You have to be very close versus a manuevering target.

 

Related, does anyone know whether the real missile can reacquire the target if a lock is lost and then relocked?

 

When you lose the target lock it should switch to flood and you should be able to guide it with CW flood.

[mattag08]

When you lose the target lock it should switch to flood and you should be able to guide it with CW flood.

 

Does that work in DCS right now? I've never seen a 7 track that way, but I also may not understand the procedure.

[Banzaiib]

I need to explain, for those not using Tacview, that during my tests, I never lost the lock. I just pushed my nose down after firing to avoid ground clutter being a problem.

 

I guess what i was saying is that the type of lock and the radar mode do not currently affect the guidance of the AIM-7 in the F-14, but it should. The radar is functioning properly, but the missile guidance is not, and when the guidance logic can be adjusted via the new missile SDK, i think we'll see great performance of the AIM-7 again.

[mattag08]

I guess what i was saying is that the type of lock and the radar mode do not currently affect the guidance of the AIM-7 in the F-14, but it should. The radar is functioning properly, but the missile guidance is not, and when the guidance logic can be adjusted via the new missile SDK, i think we'll see great performance of the AIM-7 again.

I see so you're seeing the bandit notch you even in pulse (sorta). I can see how ED would not have innately provided for that situation, so it makes sense. I hope it gets corrected soon.