F/A-18 vs F-16 Turn rate?

[dundun92]

Thats... a mod. Using that to prove anything here doesnt make sense

[Hammer1-1]

2 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Thats... a mod. Using that to prove anything here doesnt make sense

I said no. Guess you werent paying attention to the "what" I said? I KNOW ITS A MOD. Its still the F-18 Blk 20 flight model as EVERYTHING ON IT IS COSMETIC. Still goes to show that the F-16 can rate an F-18 in a turn fight.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[dundun92]

2 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I said no. Guess you werent paying attention to the "what" I said? I KNOW ITS A MOD. Its still the F-18 Blk 20 flight model as EVERYTHING ON IT IS COSMETIC. Still goes to show that the F-16 can rate an F-18 in a turn fight.

 

I mean, posting a PvP BFM fight from a YTer that flies against random people of various (usually low) skill levels and that literally disables GLoc the last time I checked isnt exactly a very good way to "prove" plane X can beat plane Z. Ofc an F-16 CAN beat an F-18 if the F-18 pilot doesnt fly well. Same way I can get an overall 3:1 KD with the MiG-21 vs F-18s on GS server. It really doesnt have any bearing on a technical discussion about known FM issues. Nor does it change the fact that the F-18 is better than the F-16 at turning, in places where it shouldnt.

[Hammer1-1]

First - Pretty sure GS knows how to fight in his aircraft as Ive been watching his dogfight vids for years. Second - his opponents are of similar skill sets as his like LongShot, and Ive been watching his dogfight videos for a while as well. To say that of varying skillset actually proves my point in that the F-16 can AND DOES hold its own against an F-18 just fine. Again it comes down to the pilot. I watched this video and I did notice  he did NOT use the paddle switch as Ive seen him do in others. Pay attention to it the second time around and redraw your conclusion or keep the debate going.

[Youda]

29 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

First - Pretty sure GS knows how to fight in his aircraft as Ive been watching his dogfight vids for years. Second - his opponents are of similar skill sets as his like LongShot, and Ive been watching his dogfight videos for a while as well. To say that of varying skillset actually proves my point in that the F-16 can AND DOES hold its own against an F-18 just fine. Again it comes down to the pilot. I watched this video and I did notice  he did NOT use the paddle switch as Ive seen him do in others. Pay attention to it the second time around and redraw your conclusion or keep the debate going.

No, and no.

This is not a "plane A is better then plane B" type of thread. This is "plane A outperforms plane B in one specific characteristic" thread.

Using random video of random people doing generic BFM combat proves exactly nothing. There are too many variables (including skill) that affect the result of the engagement that prevents it being used as a valid test of any flight characteristic.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Youda

[Hammer1-1]

I know what people are getting at in this thread,and simply because people cant be honest and not use the paddle switch in the hornet doesnt mean the F-16 cant out-rate the Hornet. Yeah, I get it; the turn rate in the Hornet is ridiculous when people abuse the paddle; the 16 rates just fine against the Hornet. Ive had fights go both ways while flying the Viper and the Hornet. Here in this video, you can see the viper clearly rate the hornet many times. Am I stating that your information is wrong? Not at all. Right now Im suggesting that everyone is fussing about is mostly between the pilot and joystick. Ive been paying attention to the stats, and they are absolutely accurate at the moment. Regarding use of the paddle switch: is it really that far off from the real thing? I dont think so. Does the Viper need some more tuning? OF COURSE!  Again, just stating that the Viper can clearly hold its own in a rate fight with or without the minor fine tuning.

[Youda]

Hornet can still outrate a Viper even without paddle switch, it's just little harder because you have to more carefully manage your speed and don't let it go above ~420 knots.

[Hammer1-1]

And thats not what Ive been seeing. Not calling you or anyone else liars or even calling out the evidence, just stating that I dont see it..especially in the vid I just posted. Personal experience in both, I havent. In any video Ive seen or any tacview files I havent see it. Ive never outrated a Viper in a Hornet, Ive never been outrated in a Viper against a Hornet. Not calling it true or false, merely stating I havent seen any real instance of it.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[darkman222]

Did they fight with g-effects on? I think growling sidewinder has turned it off for fighting in the F16.

Anyway.

I am just a gamer, nothing more. But here are my impressions as frequent player on dogfight servers:

 

1. In the F16 you are still fighting g-loc all the time when you try to rate around any other aircraft. While in the F18 you can just sit and chill while having best turn rate performance.

2. Given the assumption the turn rate of the F16 and F18 are comparable, but the F18 has just the smaller radius, nothing but front passes would happen if the f16 would not bleed speed so quickly. Instead every merge the F16 enters with a smaller amount of energy, then the F18 creeps in the F16s turn circle and there it will stay.

 

Just my impression flying both aircraft.

[Hammer1-1]

Even if that were the case regarding G effects, you would still have seen the viper being outrated in the video regardless had that been true. Now I can see it using the paddle switch every now and then; thats what its designed to do. And by no means am I an expert on what it can and cant do, but its always been he who has the smallest turn radius usually wins What I would love to see is how accurate the turn radius is for the Viper in regards to real life data, and I mean answers in feet and time @ 9g. Example: if its a 1500' radius in X amount of time @ 9g.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[darkman222]

And that is the question that drives me. Lets say 2 aircraft with IDENTICAL turn rate. But one with a smaller turn radius. They both maintain energy perfectly and stay two circle, nobody reverses the turn. What will happen? For my understanding nobody will succeed. It will stay front passes all the time endlessly. Can someone clarify?

[Hulkbust44]

Even if that were the case regarding G effects, you would still have seen the viper being outrated in the video regardless had that been true. Now I can see it using the paddle switch every now and then; thats what its designed to do. And by no means am I an expert on what it can and cant do, but its always been he who has the smallest turn radius usually wins What I would love to see is how accurate the turn radius is for the Viper in regards to real life data, and I mean answers in feet and time @ 9g. Example: if its a 1500' radius in X amount of time @ 9g.

Exactly. It's all anecdotal "Viper is the best 2C aircraft period!" and you can't do rate "tests" fighting another aircraft, too many variables.
I'm going to try each aircraft at their best rate speeds (separately) and see what turn rate results I get. Personally I've never won a rate fight against a proficient 16 pilot, nor have I out-rated a 16 in my Hornet against a proficient pilot.

What we really need is real world tests knowing all the Variables.

Sure a Hornet you merged with on GS beat you 2C, but because he was Winchester and running on fumes.

Idk, I'll test tonight.

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[Xavven]

 

40 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

And that is the question that drives me. Lets say 2 aircraft with IDENTICAL turn rate. But one with a smaller turn radius. They both maintain energy perfectly and stay two circle, nobody reverses the turn. What will happen? For my understanding nobody will succeed. It will stay front passes all the time endlessly. Can someone clarify?

 

You know, at first I thought that under those conditions, the plane with a smaller turn radius would get nose on first. I even made a stupid, inaccurate diagram in Word to prove it. But I was wrong.

 

I found a geometry sketching website at https://www.geogebra.org/geometry?lang=en and it measures angles, creates perpendicular lines, etc. and you're right... both aircraft will get nose on at exactly the same time. Here's a sketch I made with extremely exaggerated different radii, and their status after going around their circle 340° (blue lines) and 355° (red lines)

 

 

 

In reality, the planes would need to pull some AoA and wouldn't have their noses pointing tangent to their turn circle. Does that change the outcome? Answer: No. Screenshot below shows that both planes only have to pull 11.6° (green angle measured by the geometry application)

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Xavven
Forum ate my text

[Hulkbust44]

Sorry, what am I looking at?

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[Xavven]

2 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Sorry, what am I looking at?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

 

I had actual text there but when I hit submit, the forum deleted all the text explaining this. I edited the post. Reread it above. Sorry about that!

[Hulkbust44]

 
I had actual text there but when I hit submit, the forum deleted all the text explaining this. I edited the post. Reread it above. Sorry about that!

Cool, got it now. Good info

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[Xavven]

4 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Im just going to throw this in here. I KNOW he didnt use the paddle switch, but this kind of proves my point the F-16 isnt much of a slouch against a Hornet. And before you say its a Rhino, no.

 

 

I'm not sure this actually helps your case, Hammer1-1. Did you listen to his commentary at the 9:40 mark? https://youtu.be/xcqYmFLL6lE?t=580

 

He says that in full disclosure, the F-18 outrates the F-16 in DCS and that it shouldn't be that way.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Xavven

[Hulkbust44]

 
I'm not sure this actually helps your case, Hammer1-1. Did you listen to his commentary at the 9:40 mark?

 
He says that in full disclosure, the F-18 outrates the F-16 in DCS and that it shouldn't be that way.
 

Well, he then fails to do just a few minutes later. I refuse to believe that the DCS Hornet is out-rating the Viper until I see it myself with the numbers.

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[Xavven]

6 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Well, he then fails to do just a few minutes later. I refuse to believe that the DCS Hornet is out-rating the Viper until I see it myself with the numbers.

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It would appear @totmacher has those numbers for you on page 12 of this thread.

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Xavven said:

 

I'm not sure this actually helps your case, Hammer1-1. Did you listen to his commentary at the 9:40 mark? https://youtu.be/xcqYmFLL6lE?t=580

 

He says that in full disclosure, the F-18 outrates the F-16 in DCS and that it shouldn't be that way.

 

 

And then he follows through and gets shot down AND out rated by a Viper. Kind of a moot point IMO.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[karasawa]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:57 AM, totmacher said:

FA-18C_hornet vs F-16C_50

https://dcs.silver.ru/64,53

 

FA-18C_hornet vs F-16C_50  (without Pylons)

https://dcs.silver.ru/66,65

Guess what, on seeing this figure, I am pretty sure if you do the same test on 3000 m (10000 ft) the role will reverse (both without pylons).

 

You can see that the turn time of viper is slightly higher than that of the hornet but the viper has the tendency to decrease the turn time even further at higher speed, which is not possible on low altitude due to 9G limit. At 3000m the 9G limit is not a problem and the viper can fully exploit its aerodynamic efficiency at higher speed. I estimate the roll reverses at about 1000km/h.

Edited May 11, 2021 by karasawa

[Youda]

10 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

And then he follows through and gets shot down AND out rated by a Viper. Kind of a moot point IMO.

At the end of the video there is a TacView which clearly shows the Viper was maintaining his corner speed much better than the Hornet. It was a skill that detemined the result, not the performance. That's why fights like this don't prove anything.

[Hammer1-1]

9 minutes ago, Youda said:

At the end of the video there is a TacView which clearly shows the Viper was maintaining his corner speed much better than the Hornet. It was a skill that detemined the result, not the performance. That's why fights like this don't prove anything.

Well that goes even further to prove my point!  Everyone on here arguing over what ships supposed to do what on paper, the results vary slightly from real world paper, and MAYBE the rate fight is in ones head and not on graph paper. I am NOT saying the flight model is incorrect or correct as I am not an engineer nor a test pilot, and Im willing to venture that most of you arent either. The fact is that even though both aircraft are fairly matched, the Viper still rates the Hornet in everything Ive seen so far that isnt on paper. Im sorry, but I just dont see it. Maybe we'll see just how far off the flight model is when the Viper nears completion when parasitic drag is more realistically modeled, but for now from everything Ive seen in the sim its still favoring the Viper at rate fighting.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[WHOGX5]

26 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Well that goes even further to prove my point!  Everyone on here arguing over what ships supposed to do what on paper, the results vary slightly from real world paper, and MAYBE the rate fight is in ones head and not on graph paper. I am NOT saying the flight model is incorrect or correct as I am not an engineer nor a test pilot, and Im willing to venture that most of you arent either. The fact is that even though both aircraft are fairly matched, the Viper still rates the Hornet in everything Ive seen so far that isnt on paper. Im sorry, but I just dont see it. Maybe we'll see just how far off the flight model is when the Viper nears completion when parasitic drag is more realistically modeled, but for now from everything Ive seen in the sim its still favoring the Viper at rate fighting.

 

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't discuss this on a scientific basis using actual performance charts, but rather look at youtube videos and try to interpret the turn rate visually? You don't need an MSc in aeronautical engineering to read a simple performance chart and you don't need to be a test pilot to fly in a simple circle according to those charts and measure the deviation between the two. You keep saying 'I think this' and 'I think that', and then you "prove" your hunches with youtube videos of dogfights? What is your goal? To convince us with your gut feeling as the main argument?

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, WHOGX5 said:

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't discuss this on a scientific basis using actual performance charts, but rather look at youtube videos and try to interpret the turn rate visually? You don't need an MSc in aeronautical engineering to read a simple performance chart and you don't need to be a test pilot to fly in a simple circle according to those charts and measure the deviation between the two. You keep saying 'I think this' and 'I think that', and then you "prove" your hunches with youtube videos of dogfights? What is your goal? To convince us with your gut feeling as the main argument?

No, not at all. All I am trying to point out is that MAYBE you all are overthinking this and MAYBE you should just enjoy it for what it is and let the devs finish the work on it. Every single one of us know its not even close to complete, and for the sake of argument Ive yet to see anyone prove to me that the F-16 cant beat an F-18 in a rate fight except maybe on paper. Again, If I am wrong then I am wrong, but for you to assume that the rest of you arent is just asinine. Its on par with the amount of threads saying the AIM120 is more accurate than this, then another group says this is more accurate than the AIM120, and such and such. Its a never ending argument over which thing should be better than the other thing based on something you want to see and nobody else can see it but you (and those that think like you). I see F-16s rating F-18s all the time. I dont know what it is you're seeing. The Hornet is my go-to bird; the Viper not so much. I WANT to believe you, but I just dont see it.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Hammer1-1