Can an F-14 overturn an F-16 !?

[oldtimesake]

Please specify.

 

Do you fly F-16's or what to you base all of this on?

 

How many times do I need to repeat this?

 

At the same altitude the F-16C block50 sustains 0.2deg/sec faster than F-14B with the same loadout drag index.

 

55600 lbs F-14B can sustains 14 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 129% * empty weight)

26000 lbs F-16C-50 sustains 14.2 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 133% * empty weight)

 

So F-16 has the edge

[Hummingbird]

How many times do I need to repeat this?

 

At the same altitude the F-16C block50 sustains 0.2deg/sec faster than F-14B with the same loadout drag index.

 

55600 lbs F-14B can sustains 14 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 129% * empty weight)

26000 lbs F-16C-50 sustains 14.2 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 133% * empty weight)

 

So F-16 has the edge

 

It's a very tiny edge though, and the F-14's rather massive advantage in radius makes staying in the horizontal against the cat a very risky thing to do. You are basically forced to use the vertical eventually, which if you do (as any -16 pilot would) should give the -16 the overall edge in a dogfight.

 

Once the F-16's ITR and onset rate is fixed (hopefully soon, devs?), the F-16 should become the overall best dogfighter of the teen series that it also is in real life.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Hummingbird

[darkman222]

I see these argumentations often go like: "Something with the F16 is off." Someone else: "How do you know? Are you a fighter pilot?" Well, very little people here do fly planes in real life, but neither do all of the ED developers.

 

In the end its "just" a sim, yes. But many experienced players here, might have flown years in many other simulators, and although they never flew an F16 or F14 before, they have some kind of trend, or whatever you may call it in mind, how the jet should perform, compared to another.

There are various factors which influence that performance. It might also be the g-modelling which is the same for every aircraft, which comes into play with the F16.

 

In the end it's the job of the ED developers to find the factors that need to be adjusted, based on the users observations.

 

Thats why I am glad we have the open beta option here, to test a module, before a module is thrown on the market, as final and then get the users critics.

Edited May 14, 2020 by darkman222

[Hummingbird]

Well we do have the established performance of the aircraft from exhaustive flight testing, as well as the FLCS logic. The hard part is what the developers are standing with, i.e. how to apply that to the sim so that it works like IRL.

[Contact409]

How many times do I need to repeat this?

 

At the same altitude the F-16C block50 sustains 0.2deg/sec faster than F-14B with the same loadout drag index.

 

55600 lbs F-14B can sustains 14 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 129% * empty weight)

26000 lbs F-16C-50 sustains 14.2 deg at 10000 ft (total weight is 133% * empty weight)

 

So F-16 has the edge

 

 

Do you went on the dogfight server and fly ? or you just imagine the F16 have the "edge" ?

 

what your said might be ture, but this does not remotely reflect anything happen in the game.

 

no server will be using your fuel load to play, and no server will disable the G effect.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Contact409

[Airhunter]

Do you went on the dogfight server and fly ? or you just imagine the F16 have the "edge" ?

 

what your said might be ture, but this does not remotely reflect anything happen in the game.

 

no server will be using your fuel load to play, and no server will disable the G effect.

 

He's just one of those dudes who throw around some paper numbers from manuals they found on google. A very specific scenario (like 10k feet) and some specific weight. While in a real fight there is a TON more to it, that just the ideal lab numbers. If anything it comes down to pilot skill, SA and initial positioning. A 0.2° "advantage" is barely even noteworthy in any case.

[Phil C6]

Loaded with 6 amraams + pylongs (drag index = 50) and 26000 lbs total flying weight, F-16C-50 sustains at 14.2 deg/sec at 10000 ft.

 

 

Hi maybe i'm wrong but in HFFM Manual p 104:

For Std day, Alt 10000ft, Ps=0, M=0.88-0.9, index = 38, Weight 28670 Pounds, about 13.5°/s

 

Me too I'm surprise by the perf of the F14, if it was so good why they didn't keep it and same for aim54?

 

 

 

Here an interview about F15 pilot, she talks about F15vsF14

https://hushkit.net/2020/05/10/flying-fighting-in-the-f-15-eagle-interview-with-f-15-eagle-pilot/

 

 

Best regards

Edited May 22, 2020 by Phil C6

[hornblower793]

I think it came down to money in both cases. F-14 was an expensive, complex, 2-crew airframe

[oldtimesake]

Hi maybe i'm wrong but it seems on the charts it's 13.7°/s for Ps=0 no?

 

Me too I'm surprise by the perf of the F14, if it was so good why they didn't keep it and same for aim54?

 

 

 

Here an interview about F15 pilot, she talks about F15vsF14

https://hushkit.net/2020/05/10/flying-fighting-in-the-f-15-eagle-interview-with-f-15-eagle-pilot/

 

 

Best regards

 

That is a block 52+ chart, not block 50. Pay attention to the engine, and be ware of rule 1.16

[Phil C6]

That is a block 52+ chart, not block 50. Pay attention to the engine, and be ware of rule 1.16

 

 

Ok thx i modify my post, i don't understand i surely do an error of reading i don't get the data shown in first post about F14vsF15vsF16

 

 

F16block 50= 110-GE-129?

 

 

Best regards

[Hummingbird]

Here an interview about F15 pilot, she talks about F15vsF14

https://hushkit.net/2020/05/10/flying-fighting-in-the-f-15-eagle-interview-with-f-15-eagle-pilot/

 

Cost and politics.

[raptr12]

I don't have either module, but yes, if you get into a protracted dogfight where the speed gets really low, F-14 can very much out turn F-16 in that case IRL. Though, a half decent F-16 pilot shouldn't let that happen 9 out of 10 times.

 

That's what I don't like about these "can x out turn/out run/out climb y" questions. These things are usually a lot more nuanced than a simple yes/no question. At what speed, what altitude, how heavy the planes are at the moment? Often even some very old planes can have a specific niche envelope where they may out do a more modern one under said conditions. But for the 99 percent of time, that conditions will not occur, and the other plane will comfortably out do the old one under those 99 percent.

 

Does that mean than the new plane out turns the old one? Well overall yes, under certain situations no. Does it then, mean that the old plane can out do new one? Well under a specific condition yes, but overall not at all.

 

That's why these questions, especially without any context, makes me roll my eyes a bit.

 

We can't pull 9G in the Viper without blacking out (please support my post on the issue https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=273887 to get more visibility).

 

But I have to disagree with you. Since we can't pull 9G, this question has a definitive answer in my view: yes the F-14 can out turn the F-16. The F-16 can't pull any alpha and it can't out rate you because neither plane can go above 7.1G without passing out. So it gets slow and now the F-14 with it's huge control surfaces and no limiter to stop you, can pull huge amounts of alpha and always win.

[oldtimesake]

Former F-16 pilot comments on F-16 vs F-14:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27709&start=165

 

The reality is the F-16 dominates the F-14 regardless of block. Heavier blocks usually have more thrust so the Ps effect of the extra weight is somewhat negated. They may lose a little turn rate when the limiter kicks in (say 18.9 versus 19) The BLK42 (PW220 not 229) is the worst but all of the blocks have grown in weight over the years. Still, over a dynamic maneuvering environment, they will still dominate the F-14. All of them.

Lets just look at the diagram HB posted of turn rate and radius of the F-14, 15, and 16 where he asserts that the F-14 will be able to turn inside the F-15, 16 and keep a guns solution. Lets assume to begin that HB's absurd assumption that airplanes arrive at a merge with some specific airspeed that he seems to believe is their perfect AS. So the Tomcat shoots of the CAT and accelerates to .61 mach and flys into battle. The F-16 takes off and accelerates to .86 mach to enter the fray. Somehow magically the Tomcat arrives behind the F-16 at 10K feet. To follow his logic, the F-16 turns at just over 7G to sustain just over 14 degrees per second and the Tomcat turns inside and guns his brains out.......HMMMMM Nope. If I looked back over my shoulder at 10K and .86M at a Tomcat behind me at .61M and I was still alive (how did he get there and I'm not dead?) I would say, WOW it's my birthday! Right now as fast as I can write it I would be at 9G, 18 DPS rapidly increasing to 19 DPS as I slow down. In the next 10 seconds I have gone 180+ degrees of turn. If he stays at his Ps=0 and 14.1 DPS he's turned 140 degrees and is 40 degrees in lag. I can't translate the 800-1000 -Ps the F-16 has during that turn but I can tell you over 23 years of flying the F-16 that I would be around 330-350 KCAS (about .61+) still doing about the 14 DPS of the Tomcat at Ps=0, looking back over my shoulder at the top of his airplane (and my radius is now down around 2000). Lets assume he did, as HB seems to believe possible, pull to 9G also to try to stay with me. Assuming the aircraft is aerodynamically capable of 9G and the wings did not pull off, I would extrapolate his turn rate out to probably 20+ but it would be a very ITR (there is as reason why it's called INSTANTANEOUS turn rate) because his Ps would be so high that he would hit his lift limit line and go downhill in airspeed so fast that he would quickly be in trouble (notice the Ps=0 line never intersects the lift limit line on the F-14 EM chart). Now lets add in the real world he knows nothing about and that makes all the difference in the world. That break turn I do isn't level...its slightly descending so I preserve more of my energy than a purely level turn. So I am faster at the 180 still with the 40+ angular advantage. I also have a little more airspeed that I can use to translate into a slightly climbing turn where my radius reduces further, my rate drops off but I have 40 degrees of advantage to work with and my Ps is still better than his (I'm paying less for everything I do, thank you PW and GE). He's getting worried now because he started out looking at my AB can and now he's looking at the top of my airplane. So maybe he pulls even harder (well he's already sliding down that lift limit line towards 150 KCAS where he is still at negative Ps). I can go to 140 KCAS, level turn and Ps=0. I have had many defensive BFM engagements with F-14 and F-15. The result is always the same. 360-540 degrees later the F-14 is being gunned. The F-15 isn't yet but I'm becoming offensive and in USAF we call a KIO for role reversal so I never get there. So he can extrapolate all he wants but he can't give the F-14 warp drive and G-limits the jet isn't certified for and some how assert by cherry picking one data point from the EM chart of three airplanes that the F-14 is better. He'll say I'm another pilot who doesn't know what I'm talking about and I don't care.

 

And Zero can't take some pilot's assertion that the Hornet has better nose pointing capability and turn it into a hover craft that can pivot 360 spherical degrees in a furball and shoot its way out of a fight. How you going to argue with that?

 

So, let them have their "Nerd Talk" and let it go.

[stormrider]

Former F-16 pilot comments on F-16 vs F-14:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27709&start=165

 

The reality is the F-16 dominates the F-14 regardless of block. Heavier blocks usually have more thrust so the Ps effect of the extra weight is somewhat negated. They may lose a little turn rate when the limiter kicks in (say 18.9 versus 19) The BLK42 (PW220 not 229) is the worst but all of the blocks have grown in weight over the years. Still, over a dynamic maneuvering environment, they will still dominate the F-14. All of them.

Lets just look at the diagram HB posted of turn rate and radius of the F-14, 15, and 16 where he asserts that the F-14 will be able to turn inside the F-15, 16 and keep a guns solution. Lets assume to begin that HB's absurd assumption that airplanes arrive at a merge with some specific airspeed that he seems to believe is their perfect AS. So the Tomcat shoots of the CAT and accelerates to .61 mach and flys into battle. The F-16 takes off and accelerates to .86 mach to enter the fray. Somehow magically the Tomcat arrives behind the F-16 at 10K feet. To follow his logic, the F-16 turns at just over 7G to sustain just over 14 degrees per second and the Tomcat turns inside and guns his brains out.......HMMMMM Nope. If I looked back over my shoulder at 10K and .86M at a Tomcat behind me at .61M and I was still alive (how did he get there and I'm not dead?) I would say, WOW it's my birthday! Right now as fast as I can write it I would be at 9G, 18 DPS rapidly increasing to 19 DPS as I slow down. In the next 10 seconds I have gone 180+ degrees of turn. If he stays at his Ps=0 and 14.1 DPS he's turned 140 degrees and is 40 degrees in lag. I can't translate the 800-1000 -Ps the F-16 has during that turn but I can tell you over 23 years of flying the F-16 that I would be around 330-350 KCAS (about .61+) still doing about the 14 DPS of the Tomcat at Ps=0, looking back over my shoulder at the top of his airplane (and my radius is now down around 2000). Lets assume he did, as HB seems to believe possible, pull to 9G also to try to stay with me. Assuming the aircraft is aerodynamically capable of 9G and the wings did not pull off, I would extrapolate his turn rate out to probably 20+ but it would be a very ITR (there is as reason why it's called INSTANTANEOUS turn rate) because his Ps would be so high that he would hit his lift limit line and go downhill in airspeed so fast that he would quickly be in trouble (notice the Ps=0 line never intersects the lift limit line on the F-14 EM chart). Now lets add in the real world he knows nothing about and that makes all the difference in the world. That break turn I do isn't level...its slightly descending so I preserve more of my energy than a purely level turn. So I am faster at the 180 still with the 40+ angular advantage. I also have a little more airspeed that I can use to translate into a slightly climbing turn where my radius reduces further, my rate drops off but I have 40 degrees of advantage to work with and my Ps is still better than his (I'm paying less for everything I do, thank you PW and GE). He's getting worried now because he started out looking at my AB can and now he's looking at the top of my airplane. So maybe he pulls even harder (well he's already sliding down that lift limit line towards 150 KCAS where he is still at negative Ps). I can go to 140 KCAS, level turn and Ps=0. I have had many defensive BFM engagements with F-14 and F-15. The result is always the same. 360-540 degrees later the F-14 is being gunned. The F-15 isn't yet but I'm becoming offensive and in USAF we call a KIO for role reversal so I never get there. So he can extrapolate all he wants but he can't give the F-14 warp drive and G-limits the jet isn't certified for and some how assert by cherry picking one data point from the EM chart of three airplanes that the F-14 is better. He'll say I'm another pilot who doesn't know what I'm talking about and I don't care.

 

And Zero can't take some pilot's assertion that the Hornet has better nose pointing capability and turn it into a hover craft that can pivot 360 spherical degrees in a furball and shoot its way out of a fight. How you going to argue with that?

 

So, let them have their "Nerd Talk" and let it go.

 

 

Thank you

[Hummingbird]

Former F-16 pilot comments on F-16 vs F-14:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27709&start=165

 

The reality is the F-16 dominates the F-14 regardless of block. Heavier blocks usually have more thrust so the Ps effect of the extra weight is somewhat negated. They may lose a little turn rate when the limiter kicks in (say 18.9 versus 19) The BLK42 (PW220 not 229) is the worst but all of the blocks have grown in weight over the years. Still, over a dynamic maneuvering environment, they will still dominate the F-14. All of them.

Lets just look at the diagram HB posted of turn rate and radius of the F-14, 15, and 16 where he asserts that the F-14 will be able to turn inside the F-15, 16 and keep a guns solution. Lets assume to begin that HB's absurd assumption that airplanes arrive at a merge with some specific airspeed that he seems to believe is their perfect AS. So the Tomcat shoots of the CAT and accelerates to .61 mach and flys into battle. The F-16 takes off and accelerates to .86 mach to enter the fray. Somehow magically the Tomcat arrives behind the F-16 at 10K feet. To follow his logic, the F-16 turns at just over 7G to sustain just over 14 degrees per second and the Tomcat turns inside and guns his brains out.......HMMMMM Nope. If I looked back over my shoulder at 10K and .86M at a Tomcat behind me at .61M and I was still alive (how did he get there and I'm not dead?) I would say, WOW it's my birthday! Right now as fast as I can write it I would be at 9G, 18 DPS rapidly increasing to 19 DPS as I slow down. In the next 10 seconds I have gone 180+ degrees of turn. If he stays at his Ps=0 and 14.1 DPS he's turned 140 degrees and is 40 degrees in lag. I can't translate the 800-1000 -Ps the F-16 has during that turn but I can tell you over 23 years of flying the F-16 that I would be around 330-350 KCAS (about .61+) still doing about the 14 DPS of the Tomcat at Ps=0, looking back over my shoulder at the top of his airplane (and my radius is now down around 2000). Lets assume he did, as HB seems to believe possible, pull to 9G also to try to stay with me. Assuming the aircraft is aerodynamically capable of 9G and the wings did not pull off, I would extrapolate his turn rate out to probably 20+ but it would be a very ITR (there is as reason why it's called INSTANTANEOUS turn rate) because his Ps would be so high that he would hit his lift limit line and go downhill in airspeed so fast that he would quickly be in trouble (notice the Ps=0 line never intersects the lift limit line on the F-14 EM chart). Now lets add in the real world he knows nothing about and that makes all the difference in the world. That break turn I do isn't level...its slightly descending so I preserve more of my energy than a purely level turn. So I am faster at the 180 still with the 40+ angular advantage. I also have a little more airspeed that I can use to translate into a slightly climbing turn where my radius reduces further, my rate drops off but I have 40 degrees of advantage to work with and my Ps is still better than his (I'm paying less for everything I do, thank you PW and GE). He's getting worried now because he started out looking at my AB can and now he's looking at the top of my airplane. So maybe he pulls even harder (well he's already sliding down that lift limit line towards 150 KCAS where he is still at negative Ps). I can go to 140 KCAS, level turn and Ps=0. I have had many defensive BFM engagements with F-14 and F-15. The result is always the same. 360-540 degrees later the F-14 is being gunned. The F-15 isn't yet but I'm becoming offensive and in USAF we call a KIO for role reversal so I never get there. So he can extrapolate all he wants but he can't give the F-14 warp drive and G-limits the jet isn't certified for and some how assert by cherry picking one data point from the EM chart of three airplanes that the F-14 is better. He'll say I'm another pilot who doesn't know what I'm talking about and I don't care.

 

And Zero can't take some pilot's assertion that the Hornet has better nose pointing capability and turn it into a hover craft that can pivot 360 spherical degrees in a furball and shoot its way out of a fight. How you going to argue with that?

 

So, let them have their "Nerd Talk" and let it go.

 

Butthurt Viper pilot incoming :megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol:

 

I wonder if this is the same guy who was bashing Vet F-14 JockKeith "Okie" Nance in the comment section on YouTube? :shifty:

 

It's always a shame when someone is too busy making stuff up to actually comprehend what is being said. (*cough* horizontal turn fight *cough*)

 

But hey Oldtimesake, if you want we can do a dogfight, F-14 vs F-16 in DCS, both aircraft follow their real life STR graphs perfectly (F-16 lacks a bit of ITR, but shouldn't be a problem according to Viper Joe there), so we can simulate what will happen when neither aircraft is weighed down by any significant amount of ordnance or peacetime G limits, and then afterwards you tell me.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Hummingbird

[stormrider]

Butthurt Viper pilot incoming :megalol::megalol::megalol::megalol: I wonder if this is the same guy who was bashing Keith "Okie" Nance in the comment section on YouTube??

 

It's always a shame when someone is too busy making stuff up to actually comprehend what is being said. (*cough* horizontal turn fight *cough*)

 

But hey Oldtimesake, if you want we can do a dogfight, F-14 vs F-16 in DCS, both aircraft follow their real life STR graphs perfectly (F-16 lacks a bit of ITR, but shouldn't be a problem according to Viper Joe there), so we can simulate what will happen when neither aircraft is weighed down by any significant amount of ordnance or peacetime G limits, and then afterwards you tell me.

 

 

You have no self respect.

[Hummingbird]

You have no self respect.

 

Excuse me??

 

You do realize that fighter pilots are not gods right? They're human just like everyone else, and they're often highly competitive and will assert to the end of their days that their crate was/is the best.

 

I'll take the words of exhaustive flight testing meticulously documented rather than fighter jock tall tales any day, and say that out of experience talking to many fighter pilots and realizing how contradictory their opinions are, esp. when it comes to how "their crate" compares to the others.

 

Btw I am total Viper fanboy (hence why you see me pushing to get the FM fixed so much), but I won't let that get in the way of reality.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Hummingbird

[Top Jockey]

Come on people chill out...

 

My motherboard is very hot already playing DCS, I hope this cr4p doesn't melt.

[Hummingbird]

Come on people chill out...

 

My motherboard is very hot already playing DCS, I hope this cr4p doesn't melt.

 

I'm totally chill my man :)

 

I do find it a bit odd how some feel like they can just take a dump on someone else for no justifiable reason what so ever and then not expect any backlash though.

[oldtimesake]

Well, I recently checked again the mighty thrust vectored X-31 documentary and found something interesting:

 

1. F/A-18C and F-14D all lost to X-31, with considerable exchange ratio disadvantage.

 

2. F-15C/16C gained favorable exchange ratio against X-31.

 

So my point is, the way real fighter pilot flies is different from sim players. Sim players tend to pull the stick all the way backward thus those who excels at slow speed have an edge. Real fighter pilots know better energy management than us, and they do not go blackout after 3 second in 7G (DCS hahahaha)

[oldtimesake]

And, if you really want more alpha on F-16, check the MPO (manual pitch override). I am sure its craziness is beyond your imagination. Cobra is a joke by comparison.

[Bog9y]

I thought MPO was for nose down only to get out of a deep stall?

[Top Jockey]

And, if you really want more alpha on F-16, check the MPO (manual pitch override). I am sure its craziness is beyond your imagination. Cobra is a joke by comparison.

 

Hello,

 

Is this implemented in DCS ?

Is it the same as the " S " key in the Flanker ?

[oldtimesake]

I didn't pay much attention if it is implemented in DCS. Back in the days when I played BMS I used MPO extensively.

 

It works for both upward pitch and downward pitch, in game and in real life:

[Bog9y]

I never knew that. The dash 1 doesn't state if it's only for pitching down or both directions. It says the override position is to override the negative G limiter and allow pitch commands. One would assume that that means it's for pitch down only. I'll have a play with it later. So in BMS it was for pitching up too? hmmmm