Goodbye VR... for now at least.

[Baldrick33]

@Toykilla, please discuss your viewpoint within the caveats of using accurate information. For example, you feel DCS is extremely smooth and perfect, but it is good to note that you feel 45fps delivers such an experience. In my view, which is also the view of the VR industry at large, 45fps is not. There's countless resources documenting why 72fps at an absolute minimum is desired at all times for VR, with most VR developers now aiming for 90 or 120fps.

Reprojection does change that to a degree as a 90Hz headset running 45fps is still running at 90Hz.

 

Running a 90Hz headset in reprojection at 45fps is far smoother in my experience than running it at 60Hz at 60fps, or my recollection of the DK2 which ran at 75Hz.

 

Though not perfect, ASW, reprojection, motion smoothing depending on headset have made VR accessible to a wider range of applications, taking us past the concept of low resource VR special titles. It is an emerging technology, you don't need a minimum of 72fps you need a minimum of 72Hz.

[Baldrick33]

Claiming that it is perfect does not help those whose viewpoint differs from yours. People with less hardware knowledge may think they've done something wrong with their PC, when in fact they haven't at all.

The tricky bit is how subjective it all is. I have tried a lot of headsets and my conclusions about image quality, FOV, sweetspots etc. are far different to others, without any defensive nature about purchases.

 

In some cases the issue is people do need to make changes to their PC, the fact motion reprojection needs to be enabled in a text file for WMR devices is a classic example that most people probably need advice on. It is a fast growing technology and ever changing. One day SteamVR beta is the thing to use, other days not! Throw in the mix of Windows tweaks, graphics drivers, WMR updates, overclocking etc. and it becomes a bit of a minefield to even reasonably tech savvy people.

[dburne]

Reprojection does change that to a degree as a 90Hz headset running 45fps is still running at 90Hz.

 

Running a 90Hz headset in reprojection at 45fps is far smoother in my experience than running it at 60Hz at 60fps, or my recollection of the DK2 which ran at 75Hz.

 

Though not perfect, ASW, reprojection, motion smoothing depending on headset have made VR accessible to a wider range of applications, taking us past the concept of low resource VR special titles. It is an emerging technology, you don't need a minimum of 72fps you need a minimum of 72Hz.

 

Oculus has done a great job with their ASW Technology, and it works quite well.

Granted it works better in games that support depth buffering to take advantage of ASW 2 which unfortunately DCS does not, at least currently. But even when ASW kicks in with my Rift S, I still have very smooth gameplay and man is that Hornet flying off the carrier in the Persian Gulf gorgeous in VR.

[River]

High end rig here, returned my HP Reverb. It is cool and the imersion is awesome, the rest is crap. Bad performance, landscape a muddy mess, terrain stutter, you name it. I am happy to wait a few more years ... My 2 cents

[Gman109]

I beat pilots all day long in my F14 and Index.

And I also loose all day long in the same setup.

Finally, sometimes when I’m feeling froggy I use an outside view and fly while watching the whole fight at a distance arcade style .

Your statement only proves you prefer Track Ir over VR.

Congratulations. That’s why we all have the freedom to choose our own preferences. You do you, let us do us...

 

 

It's funny how the same players who will say "VR is absolutely a more immersive and better experience, hands down than 2D/TrackIR", as though it's self evident, will refuse to accept a similar statement about just ONE particular aspect of DCS (dogfight/duel) when it comes to the inverse.

 

 

Again, the vast majority of my DCS flying is spent in one of the 1/2 dozen VR units we have kicking around at any given time. However, it's not that I just "prefer" TiR over VR in dogfights/duels, it's just as evident to me and anyone else that is truly competitive - this is the key component your statement is missing, I'm talking about those who competed in various large/popular events like the Folds of Honor and other ED/etc sponsored dueling events - that TrackIR is a huge advantage over VR in DCS PvP BFM. Know how many pilots who were competitive in the DCS BFM/Folds tournament recently, and also used VR while doing so?

 

 

 

Of course everyone is free do whatever - that doesn't change the facts about what type of hardware benefits each kind of play/flight. Again, nobody seems to want to prove that VR is equal to TiR in BFM online by demonstrating so, which pretty much says all one needs to hear on the subject.

[Gman109]

This is and has been exactly my point - is English not your first language? If not then I can understand, as I thought I made this pretty clear...and again, the REASON why when dogfighting in visual range online TiR has such an advantage over VR.

 

Yes, because it is unrealistic, why to what people are referring as "realistic that pilots can look straight at their six'o'clock and detect anything there as clearly as front of them". That is why VR is far superior and has advantage in the simulation flying because it actually makes it more realistic, and so on VR pilot has advantage to learn the correct flight maneuvers and tactics instead just cheating.

You're making my point for me - again. You consider it "cheating", when someone uses TrackIR vs VR - cheating means an advantage, which AGAIN is my entire point. TrackIR (cheating, unrealistic, or otherwise), is an advantage specifically for the reasons YOU JUST STATED, when doing PvP BFM specifically IMO. While you may consider it an "advantage" to learn to fly in a more realistic way using VR, I can tell you for certain that most of those who just want to WIN in PvP BFM consider it an advantage to have the TrackIR crutch.

[TOYKILLA]

@Toykilla, please discuss your viewpoint within the caveats of using accurate information. For example, you feel DCS is extremely smooth and perfect, but it is good to note that you feel 45fps delivers such an experience. In my view, which is also the view of the VR industry at large, 45fps is not at all smooth or perfect. There's countless resources documenting why 72fps at an absolute minimum is desired at all times for VR, with most VR developers now aiming for 90 or 120fps.

You don't even know what Motionreprojection is. Days ago we tell you here,how to Setup it right, but in your opinion, your 60Hz Display Refresh Rate Setup, was the best result.

 

Please wait for a VR for anyone Solution and play on a Monitor.

 

@ micsmotionsimulator

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

It's funny how the same players who will say "VR is absolutely a more immersive and better experience, hands down than 2D/TrackIR", as though it's self evident, will refuse to accept a similar statement about just ONE particular aspect of DCS (dogfight/duel) when it comes to the inverse.

 

 

Again, the vast majority of my DCS flying is spent in one of the 1/2 dozen VR units we have kicking around at any given time. However, it's not that I just "prefer" TiR over VR in dogfights/duels, it's just as evident to me and anyone else that is truly competitive - this is the key component your statement is missing, I'm talking about those who competed in various large/popular events like the Folds of Honor and other ED/etc sponsored dueling events - that TrackIR is a huge advantage over VR in DCS PvP BFM. Know how many pilots who were competitive in the DCS BFM/Folds tournament recently, and also used VR while doing so?

 

 

 

Of course everyone is free do whatever - that doesn't change the facts about what type of hardware benefits each kind of play/flight. Again, nobody seems to want to prove that VR is equal to TiR in BFM online by demonstrating so, which pretty much says all one needs to hear on the subject.

 

Conversely, you seem to gloss over the point that some people don’t give a plumb crap about competition and Folds of hog warts.

Fact. For guys into the immersion aspect of this game, VR may rule.

Fact. For those into virtual competitions, Track IR may rule.

GET IT YET????

Quit trying to win an argument with no right answer and move on for pete sake!!!

[BigDuke6ixx]

Conversely, you seem to gloss over the point that some people don’t give a plumb crap about competition and Folds of hog warts.

Fact. For guys into the immersion aspect of this game, VR may rule.

Fact. For those into virtual competitions, Track IR may rule.

GET IT YET????

Quit trying to win an argument with no right answer and move on for pete sake!!!

 

VR it the right answers. 2d might as well be a playing card version of flying, it’s so far removed from reality.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

VR it the right answers. 2d might as well be a playing card version of flying, it’s so far removed from reality.

 

As much as I appreciate the support, Its a video game dude, who’s removed from reality ? :pilotfly:

[Gman109]

Conversely, you seem to gloss over the point that some people don’t give a plumb crap about competition and Folds of hog warts.

Fact. For guys into the immersion aspect of this game, VR may rule.

Fact. For those into virtual competitions, Track IR may rule.

GET IT YET????

Quit trying to win an argument with no right answer and move on for pete sake!!!

 

 

1. Nice job, insulting something many vets and players here put a lot of work into

 

 

 

Quit trying to win an argument with no right answer and move on for pete sake!![/Quote]Pot - kettle

 

 

I've clearly posted that agree with your 2nd and 3rd points, repeatedly.

 

 

 

My only continued argument (which has been responses to posts you and one other has made) is that Tir is a large advantage over VR in PvP BFM in DCS, in particular competitive PvP BFM. And I'm correct - I've used both a valid example of a very large recent competition (which you insulted), as well as offered anyone the chance to prove I'm wrong online (PM box is strangely empty still - shocking) using their VR vs both my TiR and the 3 different VR headsets I have. An argument you entered on the other side with your own posts - I'm not allowed to respond?

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gman109

[dburne]

Conversely, you seem to gloss over the point that some people don’t give a plumb crap about competition and Folds of hog warts.

Fact. For guys into the immersion aspect of this game, VR may rule.

Fact. For those into virtual competitions, Track IR may rule.

GET IT YET????

Quit trying to win an argument with no right answer and move on for pete sake!!!

 

The immersion won me over big time. I started with Rift CV1 back in Jan 2017. Granted I am a single player only guy, of which there are many more than there are MP folks which I am sure contributes to the high popularity of VR with flight sims.

I probably put in around 20+ hours a week into VR and love every minute of it.

[Gman109]

The immersion won me over big time. I started with Rift CV1 back in Jan 2017. Granted I am a single player only guy, of which there are many more than there are MP folks which I am sure contributes to the high popularity of VR with flight sims.

I probably put in around 20+ hours a week into VR and love every minute of it.

 

 

I'm about the same in terms of hours per week right now, for single player 10 to 15 hours, and about 10 more for multi, and I agree. I've had squadmates who were into VR back in the 90s, Razer Hydra, Vuzix VR1200, Emagin VR1200, sets like that, some of which could cost up to $2k. I got into when the DK1 came out, and didn't look back. Once the Rift/Vive first gen units went retail, I was hooked too.

 

 

With the Index and Reverb now, and even to some extent the Rift S, a serious level of immersion can be attained for 1/3 the cost of $2k way back when for HMD(s) that didn't give 1/50th the performance we get now.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gman109

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

Never trying to insult. We’re all nerds here.

[hansangb]

If someone is going to call me a prima Donna for having my say, while a few others fill this thread with utterly inaccurate technical claims which will confuse more people who have visited this extremely popular thread, I'm going to set the record straight.

 

DCS VR is objectively not "super smooth". But a core group of VR flyers are happy with low fps.

DCS VR is objectively buggy

DCS VR objectively causes visibility issues

DCS VR is subjectively amazingly immersive

DCS VR is subjectively good for casual flying and/or some slowmovers

DCS VR is not suitable for competitive or complex missions - I'd say that's objective given that the key influencers in the DCS community have nearly all ditched VR after trying it.

DCS VR will not be magically saved by porting to Vulkan, if every other previous, real game example is accurate.

DCS VR has the potential to be absolutely astonishing, but it will likely take many years for the hardware to be fast enough.

 

And finally, most of the tweaks suggested by some DCS users to get VR working well are objectively not correct - it's impossible to get DCS VR to run at the same standard as every other true VR game on the market.

 

I can factually prove every point I've just made, and have done so many times. Hopefully this will help those interested in VR who are reading this thread have a more accurate idea of what to expect. Ditto with those who are disappointed by the VR experience, but are wasting time chasing a performance level that does not yet exist.

 

 

I guess it's statements like this that make people react to you the way they do. How can a subjective experience like smoothness/vision be objective. I have SUPER SMOOTH experience in VR with Reverb. But it's 100% subjective. Also it's smooth to me because I suffered through the early days of judder fest.

 

I mean I get that you don't like VR, or don't think it's ready for prime time or that there are rabid fanbases who overlook every downside (which there are plenty -FoV for one.

 

And you can't FACTUALLY prove anything unless you've sat in front of every computer. I mean there must be a 1,000 posts on here with same/similar setups having all kinds of issues, and another 1,000 that don't.

 

We get it. You're not a fan. Move on. You *are* a prima donna because you conflate opinion to facts. And it's simply not possible given the subjective nature and the myriad of hardware/software combinations. You wouldn't have enough time in the day nor the budget to recreate every single permutation. Factual? You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Edited February 2, 2020 by hansangb

[*Rage*]

It's funny how the same players who will say "VR is absolutely a more immersive and better experience, hands down than 2D/TrackIR", as though it's self evident, will refuse to accept a similar statement about just ONE particular aspect of DCS (dogfight/duel) when it comes to the inverse.

 

 

Again, the vast majority of my DCS flying is spent in one of the 1/2 dozen VR units we have kicking around at any given time. However, it's not that I just "prefer" TiR over VR in dogfights/duels, it's just as evident to me and anyone else that is truly competitive - this is the key component your statement is missing, I'm talking about those who competed in various large/popular events like the Folds of Honor and other ED/etc sponsored dueling events - that TrackIR is a huge advantage over VR in DCS PvP BFM. Know how many pilots who were competitive in the DCS BFM/Folds tournament recently, and also used VR while doing so?

 

 

 

Of course everyone is free do whatever - that doesn't change the facts about what type of hardware benefits each kind of play/flight. Again, nobody seems to want to prove that VR is equal to TiR in BFM online by demonstrating so, which pretty much says all one needs to hear on the subject.

 

Id argue that some VR is more heavily compromised in BVR rather than BFM in a PVP competitive sense. Obviously individual mileages will vary.

 

Edit: Also just as VR cant all be lumped into one entity (original Vive vs Reverb for example), neither can the 2D experience. There is a world of difference between playing on a 24" Monitor on your desk and a 65" 4K TV with MFDs, secondary monitor, inside a pit etc.

Edited February 2, 2020 by ///Rage

[Notso]

For those of you who want to get rid of your Reverb, PM me. I'm looking at buying one soon and I'll be happy to take it off your hands.

[TOYKILLA]

Id argue that some VR is more heavily compromised in BVR rather than BFM in a PVP competitive sense. Obviously individual mileages will vary.

 

Edit: Also just as VR cant all be lumped into one entity (original Vive vs Reverb for example), neither can the 2D experience. There is a world of difference between playing on a 24" Monitor on your desk and a 65" 4K TV with MFDs, secondary monitor, inside a pit etc.

 

In VR,You are in the Cockpit.

 

I Own a 32:9 Samsung, TrackIR 5, have a Motioncockpit with Simshaker and 4 MFD's, but VR is a other World for me since the DK2 Release. DCS with the CV1 was Bad,but with the Reverb and 200% SS, it's like the Real thing on a Overclocked High end System.

 

@ micsmotionsimulator

[eaglecash867]

I have SUPER SMOOTH experience in VR with Reverb. But it's 100% subjective.

 

+1

 

"Objectively" in this case means an opinion, based on incomplete information from a system that is not capable of registering the frame interpolation done by motion reprojection.

 

But this "core group of VR flyers...happy with low FPS" get our subjective viewpoint by doing the silly thing of actually looking out the window, and not being fooled by an FPS counter and its limitations in seeing interpolated frames.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

+1

 

"Objectively" in this case means an opinion, based on incomplete information from a system that is not capable of registering the frame interpolation done by motion reprojection.

 

But this "core group of VR flyers...happy with low FPS" get our subjective viewpoint by doing the silly thing of actually looking out the window, and not being fooled by an FPS counter and its limitations in seeing interpolated frames.

 

I declare the 2d screen viewers the winner of this thread!!!!!

Congratulations, go tell your family and see how impressive they find that!! Bet they will be proud! Thumbs up to you bro. Going to play my game.

Hahah.....

Biggs signing off

[eaglecash867]

I declare the 2d screen viewers the winner of this thread!!!!!

Congratulations, go tell your family and see how impressive they find that!! Bet they will be proud! Thumbs up to you bro. Going to play my game.

Hahah.....

Biggs signing off

 

:confused:

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

:confused:

 

Just a sarcasm really. Again, not sure anyone can really argue one against the other, totally different objectives. Interesting enough, most of these hi faluten competitions are BVR. Nobody looks outside the cockpit anyway.

Each their own.

Regards

[BigDuke6ixx]

+1

 

"Objectively" in this case means an opinion, based on incomplete information from a system that is not capable of registering the frame interpolation done by motion reprojection.

 

But this "core group of VR flyers...happy with low FPS" get our subjective viewpoint by doing the silly thing of actually looking out the window, and not being fooled by an FPS counter and its limitations in seeing interpolated frames.

 

The 2D crowd are totally obsessed with frame rates and they just can't deal with 45 feeling as smooth as 90. To them 'it's half so it must be half as good'.

[eaglecash867]

Just a sarcasm really. Again, not sure anyone can really argue one against the other, totally different objectives. Interesting enough, most of these hi faluten competitions are BVR. Nobody looks outside the cockpit anyway.

Each their own.

Regards

 

If I was looking to argue with people about the virtues of VR versus TIR, I'd be showing up in TIR threads insisting that I "won" something. As you say, each their own, which is why I happily stay in the VR threads and don't feel a need to go to unrelated areas of the forum just to say "my way is better". My way is better for me. :D

[dburne]

Ya know gang, a "Goodbye" is really not a goodbye unless someone actually leaves...

 

:smartass: