Yak-9

[upyr1]

10 hours ago, Nipil said:

TBH, I don't believe that DCS devs would like to stretch their limited resources even further to go and play on the field of another well-established Russian WW2 air combat simulator, called after a certain attacker plane. They would have big problems competing with this another simulator in a Great Patriotic War niche. And they already are heavily invested into NW Europe and the Pacific. 

 

P.s. But if they do make it, it would be magnificent.

 

Here is my rebuttal to the whole  "but IL-2 is doing the World War II Eastern Front" We have the I-16

 

and  if we ignore the I-16, there is still a good arguments for more WW II Eastern front aircraft 

the F-86 

 

We have the F-86 right now the only official Korean war era asset for the Redfor is the MiG-15 

Both sides of the cold war started with a lot of left over World War II equipment, so we actually have quite a bit of equipment for the Bluefor but almost nothing for the Redfor so we at least need more targets for the Sabre. 

 

 

[TotenDead]

12 часов назад, upyr1 сказал:

Both sides of the cold war started with a lot of left over World War II equipment, so we actually have quite a bit of equipment for the Bluefor but almost nothing for the Redfor so we at least need more targets for the Sabre. 

 

 

 

 

Let me help you a bit. MiG-19 fits our sabre nicely 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, TotenDead said:

Let me help you a bit. MiG-19 fits our sabre nicely 

The Super Sabre would be a better bluefor opponent for the MiG-19. Anyhow this still doesn't change the fact We need more early cold war assets especially for the redfor

[Northstar98]

8 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Let me help you a bit. MiG-19 fits our sabre nicely 

 

*MiG-15bis, as upyr1 said, the F-100 is a better counterpart to the MiG-19.

 

As for as early Cold War assets go:

• 1 REDFOR tank: T-55
• 1 REDFOR APC: MT-LB
• 1 REDFOR SPAAA: ZSU-57-2
• 2 REDFOR AAA: AZP S60 and KS-19 (both WIP)
• 1 REDFOR FCR: SON-9, (though SON-4 has also been mentioned).
• 1 BLUFOR aircraft: F-86F
• 2 REDFOR aircraft: MiG-15bis and MiG-19P

Apart from recycling what you can from the WWII Assets Pack, there's absolutely nothing else. The only BLUFOR anything is one aircraft. Absolutely no ships and no maps.

 

And as for the Yak-9, we have the same issue with very little Soviet assets for it, much less an appropriate map.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Northstar98

[Dragon1-1]

We also have the P-51D to go with the Sabre, and if you're counting WIPs, also the Corsair. Also WWII Assets Pack have most of US equipment that you'd need for a Korean campaign. Yak-9, Il-10 and other late WWII Soviet aircraft would be great additions for Korea, but in the end, this would require a Korean War map. 

[TLTeo]

To be fair, a Korean War map would be ideal but not strictly necessary. The Hunters over the Yalu campaign does a great job of capturing Korean era missions, but it's set in Caucasus. I know it's not an ideal solution, but imo it's a decent enough placeholder in the short/medium term. Plus, you can kind of turn the argument around and build enough Korean era assets before the map to justify its addition.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

 

*MiG-15bis, as upyr1 said, the F-100 is a better counterpart to the MiG-19.

 

As for as early Cold War assets go:

• 1 REDFOR tank: T-55
• 1 REDFOR APC: MT-LB
• 1 REDFOR SPAAA: ZSU-57-2
• 2 REDFOR AAA: AZP S60 and KS-19 (both WIP)
• 1 REDFOR FCR: SON-9, (though SON-4 has also been mentioned).
• 1 BLUFOR aircraft: F-86F
• 2 REDFOR aircraft: MiG-15bis and MiG-19P

Apart from recycling what you can from the WWII Assets Pack, there's absolutely nothing else. The only BLUFOR anything is one aircraft. Absolutely no ships and no maps.

 

And as for the Yak-9, we have the same issue with very little Soviet assets for it, much less an appropriate map.

 

We have two period blufor, we also have Mustang which was used asthe F-51 by the USAF and National Guard until 1957.

We clearly use the term "Early cold war" differently since I'm basically using it to mean the Stalinist era- so the post war period leading up to the Korean war. While I think of mid cold war as being from the Khrushev era to Nixon visiting China. Anyhow I think we can both agree there needs to be more assets and maps. 

[dfpoor]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:03 PM, Eber said:

Over 16,000 were built.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-9

Was my favorite plane in FB.  Gorgeous, easy to fly, turned on a dime.  Low ammo capacity was a major challenge.

[Northstar98]

On 2/16/2021 at 5:33 PM, upyr1 said:

We have two period blufor, we also have Mustang which was used asthe F-51 by the USAF and National Guard until 1957.

We clearly use the term "Early cold war" differently since I'm basically using it to mean the Stalinist era- so the post war period leading up to the Korean war. While I think of mid cold war as being from the Khrushev era to Nixon visiting China. Anyhow I think we can both agree there needs to be more assets and maps. 

Even so that's barely an improvement, given the competition. Though the Yak-9 might help with that.

And true, though I guess I should add what you can recycle from WW2 rather than just the assets pack.

And just for clarity, I define the early Cold War is in ~15 intervals, rather than specific events, for instance 1947 - 1959 I define as early; 1960 - 1975 as mid, and 1976 to 1991 as late.

But however you define it, the assets (not to mention maps which there are none) suitable for the early Cold War is incredibly sparse and limited - probably the least fleshed out by far, at least without the WW2 assets.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting, spelling

[upyr1]

49 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

We also have the P-51D to go with the Sabre, and if you're counting WIPs, also the Corsair. Also WWII Assets Pack have most of US equipment that you'd need for a Korean campaign. Yak-9, Il-10 and other late WWII Soviet aircraft would be great additions for Korea, but in the end, this would require a Korean War map. 

I figure a mid World War II version of the Caucuses Map would also be nice. (winter 1942 - 1943) the biggest change would be construction and it would be a good point in time to have both the I-16 and later war vehicles.  I would love a centeral eruope map such as the fulda gap.

 

37 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

To be fair, a Korean War map would be ideal but not strictly necessary. The Hunters over the Yalu campaign does a great job of capturing Korean era missions, but it's set in Caucasus. I know it's not an ideal solution, but imo it's a decent enough placeholder in the short/medium term. Plus, you can kind of turn the argument around and build enough Korean era assets before the map to justify its addition.

I'm in agreement here, that it is more impotant to have the right assets than map. I'd rather have a Korean war era battle in the wrong theater with the correct assets than the right map and wrong assets

[SovietAce]

I would buy any Soviet aircraft avaiable. If it would be same late variant like 9M,U or P, it would certainly made nice addition for possible La-7 and It would also be good oponent to German (or American) aircrafts that we have currently in game. Of course It would be nice If there would be some Soviet WW2 asssets and suitable map, however there was a pretty long time when only way to play WW2 in DCS was with P-51 against 109s and Doras over modern Caucascus. Its not ideal, but Its doable.

Edited February 16, 2021 by SovietAce

[Dragon1-1]

43 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

But however you define it, the assets (not to mention maps which there are none) suitable for the early Cold War is incredibly sparse and limited - probably the least flushed out by far, at least without the WW2 assets.

That might be because early cold war gear was late WW2 gear, at least in a very large part. Remember, the US had a crapton of leftover WW2 hardware, made in anticipation of the invasion of Japan. It took them a long while to replace that stuff. Korea, for instance, was as close to a "what if WWII went on for a few more years" scenario as we've ever got in reality. Most of the WWII stuff only really disappeared at some point in the 60s.

[Northstar98]

On 2/16/2021 at 7:04 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

That might be because early cold war gear was late WW2 gear, at least in a very large part. Remember, the US had a crapton of leftover WW2 hardware, made in anticipation of the invasion of Japan. It took them a long while to replace that stuff. Korea, for instance, was as close to a "what if WWII went on for a few more years" scenario as we've ever got in reality. Most of the WWII stuff only really disappeared at some point in the 60s.

In a very large part? Let's have some examples.

Because as far as aircraft go, the majority are easily post-war, even if they were variants of WWII aircraft.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[upyr1]

8 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Even so that's barely an improvement, given the competition. Though the Yak-9 might help with that.

 

True, though I guess I should add what you can recycle from WW2 rather than just the assets pack.

 

And just for clarity, I define the early Cold War is in ~15 intervals, rather than specific events, for instance 1947 - 1959 I define as early; 1960 - 1975 as mid, and 1976 to 1991 as late.

 

But however you define it, the assets (not to mention maps which there are none) suitable for the early Cold War is incredibly sparse and limited - probably the least flushed out by far, at least without the WW2 assets.

 

So the next questions are what maps do we want and what version(s) of the YAK-9? I figure the P would be the most accurate for the cold war, but if we get an early version then a good map might be a World War II caucuses map just retouch what we have now. Though for the cold war the ideal maps would be the Fulda Gap and of course Korea

[Dragon1-1]

6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Because as far as aircraft go, the majority are easily post-war, even if they were variants of WWII aircraft.

Well, there were many B-29s, P-51s, A-1s (a WWII design that didn't quite make it to the front)... It's true that props undergone a sharp decline post-WWII, but they did remain in various supporting roles. 

 

When you go down onto the ground, however, it's completely different. Pershings, Pattons, Garands, the deuce and a half, WWII-vintage jeeps, Bofors flak guns, all sorts of artillery... Some of it got additional upgrades after the war, but things like trucks and most infantry gear stayed the same. 

[TLTeo]

46 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, there were many B-29s, P-51s, A-1s (a WWII design that didn't quite make it to the front)... It's true that props undergone a sharp decline post-WWII, but they did remain in various supporting roles. 

 

When you go down onto the ground, however, it's completely different. Pershings, Pattons, Garands, the deuce and a half, WWII-vintage jeeps, Bofors flak guns, all sorts of artillery... Some of it got additional upgrades after the war, but things like trucks and most infantry gear stayed the same. 

Also HVARs and ww2 era bombs were used even in Vietnam.

[Northstar98]

On 2/16/2021 at 8:07 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, there were many B-29s, P-51s, A-1s (a WWII design that didn't quite make it to the front)... It's true that props undergone a sharp decline post-WWII, but they did remain in various supporting roles. 

 

When you go down onto the ground, however, it's completely different. Pershings, Pattons, Garands, the deuce and a half, WWII-vintage jeeps, Bofors flak guns, all sorts of artillery... Some of it got additional upgrades after the war, but things like trucks and most infantry gear stayed the same. 

Well, sticking to our 2 main players in DCS; that being the US and the USSR - easily the 2 nations with the most equipment. And let's go for probably the most important assets we need to make a mission; namely aircraft, air defences and armour. (I would go into ships, artillery, and unarmed vehicles like jeeps and trucks, but I don't want this to be longer than it is, and this isn't really the place).

WW2 fighters at the time were also basically post-war variants of WWII aircraft at best and had far diminished roles, those P-51 you mentioned? They were quickly replaced by early jets which were more prolific and much more fitting, such as the F-80 (technically WWII but only by a smidge) F-84 and -84F, F-86 and F-94, shortly followed by the first of the Century series. For REDFOR, the Yak-15/17/23, La-15, MiG-9 and the MiG-15, with the MiG-17 and MiG-19 shortly after.

Bombers:

Spoiler

WW2 era:

• B-29
• Tu-2
• Tu-4

Of which we don't have any present, so we can't recycle them.

Compared against:

• B-36
• B-45
• B-47
• B-50
• B-57
• Il-28
• Tu-16
• Tu-95 (original 'Bear A' variant)

All would be much more appropriate, as would early jets; most propeller aircraft were post-war variants.

Air Defences:

Spoiler

WW2 era:

• 40mm Bofors
• M45 Quadmount
• 90mm M1/M2
• 120mm M1
• 37mm 61-K
• 45mm 21-K ~
• 85mm 52-K

Here we can at least recycle the first 2.

Compared against:

• M51 Skysweeper
• Nike Ajax
• Nike Hercules (though only just)
• M42 Duster
• AZP S60
• ZSU-57-2
• KS-19 (okay was developed from a WW2 naval gun, but the actual KS-19 itself was post-war)
• KS-30
• SA-1/S-25
• SA-2/S-75

Tanks:

Spoiler

WW2 era:

• M4Ax(76)
• M24
• M26 (only by a smidge)
• T-34
• T-44
• IS-1
• IS-2

Though in diminished numbers or relegated to reserve duties (M24 and 26 are maybe exceptions, but replaced by the M41 and M46 respectively). In the WW2 assets pack, we only have one of these and it's the wrong variant, so we can't do much recycling either...

Compared against:

• M41
• M46
• M47
• M48
• T-54
• T-55
• IS-3
• IS-4
• T-10

Again, much more appropriate, and more prolific as well as being the primary tanks, in their roles, at the time.

As for artillery? Sure, it's just a shame we don't have any we can actually recycle - which was the point I was trying to make (though maybe not very clearly). Though towed artillery such as field guns and howitzers still being something totally absent in DCS (as well as towed anything apart from a very select few examples).

As for WWII trucks and Jeeps, sure they were still around but had been superseded by the M35 truck and M38 jeep in the late 40s/early 50s. Though I imagine the Wilys MB was still pretty prolific given how many were made.

So in terms of recycling the stuff from the current WWII assets pack (which again, was what I was getting at - should've been more clear on my part), there's only really what 6-ish units you can recycle maybe a couple more? And one of them is the completely wrong variant.

Anyway back to the Yak-9

On 2/16/2021 at 7:28 PM, upyr1 said:

So the next questions are what maps do we want and what version(s) of the YAK-9? I figure the P would be the most accurate for the cold war, but if we get an early version then a good map might be a World War II caucuses map just retouch what we have now. Though for the cold war the ideal maps would be the Fulda Gap and of course Korea

Yeah a WWII Caucasus map could do well, though with more focus on the Kuban. Smolensk is probably a good region for it.

And yes definitely agreed on the Fulda Gap (or ideally a northern and central Germany map) would be perfect for the Cold War - with the mid-to-late 60s/very early 70s to late 80s being the perfect era.

And Korea would be an obvious choice for early Cold War missions.

On 2/16/2021 at 8:55 PM, TLTeo said:

Also HVARs and ww2 era bombs were used even in Vietnam.

I'm pretty sure the Vulcan in the Falklands might even have been using WW2 era 1000 Ib bombs too.

Mind you the M2 Browning has been around for not far off a century.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[upyr1]

47 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Anyway back to the Yak-9

 

Yeah a WWII Caucasus map could do well, though with more focus on the Kuban. Smolensk is probably a good region for it.

 

And yes definitely agreed on the Fulda Gap (or ideally a northern and central Germany map) would be perfect for the Cold War - with the mid-to-late 60s/very early70s to late 80s being the perfect era. And Korea would be an obvious choice for early Cold War missions.

The Fulda Gap was seen as a potential World War III battle field since 1945, so as I have said in another post my dream for the Fulda Gap would be a few different versions representing different points in time which would get loaded based on mission start time. 

[lmp]

I'd say either Operation Bagration or Berlin 1945. This way our late war German and Western planes still fit and we can play out post 1945 fantasy scenarios. Also, competition doesn't have it yet. And a Yak-9 to match, maybe the most common M?

[Doc3908]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:39 AM, TLTeo said:

I'd take a Yak-9 over the Yak-3, since the -9 also flew in the Korean War. It would be a pretty good complement to the P51/Sabre/Mig15.

 

That's assuming you want to fly an early Korea scenario. But WWII scenarios of Yak-3s vs. Me-109s and FW190s are just as fun (probably more fun for me personally). The Yak-3 was the most maneuverable Russian fighter of WWII (highest roll rate and highest sustained turn rate (somewhat debatable)). It was lighter than the Yak-9 (2550kg vs. 3000+kg) and had a better thrust-to-weight ratio, though the Yak-9 had more wing-area. As you probably know, the germans were advised "not to engage Yaks without an oil-cooler intake in the nose (i.e. Yak-3) under 5000m". Either the Yak-9 or the Yak-3 - in any variant - would be fantastic, but my vote is for the Yak-3.

[rayrayblues]

On 2/16/2021 at 4:05 PM, Doc3908 said:

 

That's assuming you want to fly an early Korea scenario. But WWII scenarios of Yak-3s vs. Me-109s and FW190s are just as fun (probably more fun for me personally). The Yak-3 was the most maneuverable Russian fighter of WWII (highest roll rate and highest sustained turn rate (somewhat debatable)). It was lighter than the Yak-9 (2550kg vs. 3000+kg) and had a better thrust-to-weight ratio, though the Yak-9 had more wing-area. As you probably know, the germans were advised "not to engage Yaks without an oil-cooler intake in the nose (i.e. Yak-3) under 5000m". Either the Yak-9 or the Yak-3 - in any variant - would be fantastic, but my vote is for the Yak-3.

 

My vote would be for the Yak 9-T with the 37mm cannon. Good A to A weapon.

The K variant with the 45mm is too nose heavy and not as accurate.

 

The problem with Cold War assets is that the Cold War was just that, Cold.

Aside from a hand full of skirmishes over a ~30 year period, there wasn't much shooting going on.

Development continued more on a perceived threat than on actual combat.

Remember what the C in DCS stands for.

 

The Korean War would be the logical next step to for DCS to develop, after Pacific Theatre,

in which case I would advocate for early helicopters, Bell-47, Sikorsky H-34, S-51, S-55 and Piasecki H-21.

BUT, Pacific Theatre first please. As a wise man once said, "DCS is a mile wide and an inch deep."

Lets see if we can make it a little deeper.

 

 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

 

My vote would be for the Yak 9-T with the 37mm cannon. Good A to A weapon.

The K variant with the 45mm is too nose heavy and not as accurate.

 

The problem with Cold War assets is that the Cold War was just that, Cold.

Aside from a hand full of skirmishes over a ~30 year period, there wasn't much shooting going on.

Development continued more on a perceived threat than on actual combat.

Remember what the C in DCS stands for.

In my view just because a conflict didn't happen isn't a reason not to have a dcs theater based on it happening. Which is why I like the idea of a Fulda gap map that changes time periods based on your mission start date.

 

1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

 

The Korean War would be the logical next step to for DCS to develop, after Pacific Theatre,

in which case I would advocate for early helicopters, Bell-47, Sikorsky H-34, S-51, S-55 and Piasecki H-21.

BUT, Pacific Theatre first please. As a wise man once said, "DCS is a mile wide and an inch deep."

Lets see if we can make it a little deeper.

 

The Marianas campaign happen from June to November 1943 and I hope Eagle will make it a point to add allied assets that went on to serve in later wars first. As it will deepen more sections of the pond.

[WarbossPetross]

16.02.2021 в 23:57, lmp сказал:

I'd say either Operation Bagration or Berlin 1945. This way our late war German and Western planes still fit and we can play out post 1945 fantasy scenarios. Also, competition doesn't have it yet. And a Yak-9 to match, maybe the most common M?

 

17.02.2021 в 01:05, Doc3908 сказал:

 

That's assuming you want to fly an early Korea scenario. But WWII scenarios of Yak-3s vs. Me-109s and FW190s are just as fun (probably more fun for me personally). The Yak-3 was the most maneuverable Russian fighter of WWII (highest roll rate and highest sustained turn rate (somewhat debatable)). It was lighter than the Yak-9 (2550kg vs. 3000+kg) and had a better thrust-to-weight ratio, though the Yak-9 had more wing-area. As you probably know, the germans were advised "not to engage Yaks without an oil-cooler intake in the nose (i.e. Yak-3) under 5000m". Either the Yak-9 or the Yak-3 - in any variant - would be fantastic, but my vote is for the Yak-3.

I vote Yak-9TK or UT, almost the same performance as Yak-9U for the latter and the ability to literally swap the central cannon. TK dates to the second half of 1943, so plenty of timeline to cover. Yak-3, as good as it is in the stats, hasn't seen as much production compared to Yak-9, but as prolific as Soviet props are in DCS, literally anything will do at this point.

[IcedVenom]

On 2/23/2021 at 9:41 AM, rayrayblues said:

 

My vote would be for the Yak 9-T with the 37mm cannon. Good A to A weapon.

The K variant with the 45mm is too nose heavy and not as accurate.

 

The problem with Cold War assets is that the Cold War was just that, Cold.

Aside from a hand full of skirmishes over a ~30 year period, there wasn't much shooting going on.

Development continued more on a perceived threat than on actual combat.

Remember what the C in DCS stands for.

 

The Korean War would be the logical next step to for DCS to develop, after Pacific Theatre,

in which case I would advocate for early helicopters, Bell-47, Sikorsky H-34, S-51, S-55 and Piasecki H-21.

BUT, Pacific Theatre first please. As a wise man once said, "DCS is a mile wide and an inch deep."

Lets see if we can make it a little deeper.

 

 

I don't think we need a Pacific theater. Instead we should get an Eastern Baltic map for both modern and WWII. That way we could see planes like La-7 and Yak-3 and others.

[upyr1]

11 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

I don't think we need a Pacific theater. Instead we should get an Eastern Baltic map for both modern and WWII. That way we could see planes like La-7 and Yak-3 and others.

Why not do a WWII Mariana's map then a East Front map or Korea?

Edited August 19, 2021 by upyr1