Having trouble understanding TWS

[Nealius]

I'm having some trouble understanding the TWS behavior. Three things, probably all user error, but I've gone through the manual a few times and still don't quite get it.

 

1. I bug a radar contact in the center of my FCR, but the aircraft that actually gets bugged is a good 30~40 degrees left or right of my nose, well outside the boundary of my HUD. No idea what's happening here. It's like the system randomly picks whatever is out there and it's decidedly not what's directly in front of me.

 

2. The manual shows symbology for search targets, track targets, system targets, and bugged targets without IFF. When flying online I get IFF contacts (red triangles) but I have no idea what's a search target, what's a track target, what's a system target, and what's a bugged target because that symbology isn't shown in the manual. What should they look like?

 

3. I'm confused on the switchology for multiple target engagement. The manual says:

 

Transition the track targets you wish to engage to system targets. Bug the highest priority system target and fire the missile. Cycle through system targets and fire a missile at each in turn when it is bugged.

 

Uh....okay. Let me backtrack a couple pages here to connect the dots.

 

Three contacts. I TMS UP on each contact, fire, TMS RIGHT to switch, fire, TMS RIGHT to switch, fire.

 

Is that correct?

[foxwxl]

With TWS, a TMS right will update all the track files to SYSTEM target, If you wish to engage multiple targets, just bug one target(tms up), fire, TMS right to cycle to next target, fire, then TMS RIGHT again. Only 1 TMS UP needed.

 

And although the DL will brought IFF infomation, but currently it is bugged, friendly will also shown as enemy (very often). So TMS LEFT using the MODE 4 IFF on your own A/C will be a better way to ID the target.

[Nealius]

Ah, gotcha. Does the IFF IN/OUT HOTAS function not do anything in the Block 50? I didn't realize IFF had moved to TMS LEFT until I perused the manual.

[razo+r]

IFF IN/OUT handles the Datalink stuff, so it is used (later on)

[foxwxl]

It's for the AA/AG Datalink operation, currently with the LINK16 MIDS already implemented, you don't have to touch any of these.

With IDM, IFF IN/OUT will be needed.

Edited February 11, 2020 by foxwxl

[Alpa]

 

2. The manual shows symbology for search targets, track targets, system targets, and bugged targets without IFF. When flying online I get IFF contacts (red triangles) but I have no idea what's a search target, what's a track target, what's a system target, and what's a bugged target because that symbology isn't shown in the manual. What should they look like?

 

 

These red triangles are contacts from your datalink. If they dont have white squere under them they are not radar contact and you cant transfer them to bugged targets.

[Nealius]

Okay I think I got the hang of it after running some training sessions. I keep having times where TMS UP won't bug anything until the second or third press.

[foxwxl]

Okay I think I got the hang of it after running some training sessions. I keep having times where TMS UP won't bug anything until the second or third press.

 

That's depend on status of the track file , the APG-68 will update a trackfile to tank target automatically after serveral ping. If you want shoot some guy, you will need a bug target, but if the target is just popping up on radar, it will take time before the track file can be auto upgraded. TMS UP can command the radar manual update a track file, so maybe 2-3 TMS UP is required before a target can be bugged if its a new pop up contact.

 

search target(raw contact)->tank target->system target->bug target->STT target

 

If you want to speed up the process, RWS->SAM chould be a better choice.

Edited February 11, 2020 by foxwxl

[deadpool]

If you don't mind a staring content, use STT anyways instead of SAM or RWS for a more solid lock.

[Fri13]

If you don't mind a staring content, use STT anyways instead of SAM or RWS for a more solid lock.

 

Way it is done, as you are anyways engaging likely maneuvering targets and last thing you want is a target to break lock by one fast turn or sudden deceleration, and you are there with a multiple fighters where you all each take individual targets and maybe one is holding the situational awareness over datalink.

 

Much higher pK with STT than using TWS or other modes. That at least what real Hornet pilots does (the current one modeled in DCS), so can't be that different for Falcon.

[deadpool]

Way it is done, as you are anyways engaging likely maneuvering targets and last thing you want is a target to break lock by one fast turn or sudden deceleration, and you are there with a multiple fighters where you all each take individual targets and maybe one is holding the situational awareness over datalink.

 

Much higher pK with STT than using TWS or other modes. That at least what real Hornet pilots does (the current one modeled in DCS), so can't be that different for Falcon.

 

I am not sure if it is correct behavior ( I doubt it ), but if you fire a FOX-3 in STT, it seem that it's not guiding on datalinked updates like in TWS, but instead uses CW illumination of the target, which will make the target aware that a missile is coming.

 

So if you want to slow down their reaction time, SAM or TWS modes are quite useful.

Against AI, just use STT, as they will know immediatly when you launch anyhow.

[Deano87]

I am not sure if it is correct behavior ( I doubt it ), but if you fire a FOX-3 in STT, it seem that it's not guiding on datalinked updates like in TWS, but instead uses CW illumination of the target, which will make the target aware that a missile is coming.

 

So if you want to slow down their reaction time, SAM or TWS modes are quite useful.

Against AI, just use STT, as they will know immediatly when you launch anyhow.

 

That is correct behaviour, STT should give the other aircraft a lock warning where as TWS shouldn’t

[deadpool]

That is correct behaviour, STT should give the other aircraft a lock warning where as TWS shouldn’t

 

On that note and because I learnt something more.

 

There is CW.

There is PD-STT guidance and P-STT guidance.

 

For the F-14 it will (unless overridden by the RIO) go to a CW mode to give the Sparrow something to home in to. This change in radar mode is detectable for a RWR and it will then most likely tell you loudly that there is most likely a missile incoming. Even though it doesn't detect an active seeker.

 

As for modern variants of the Sparrow they seem to guide in on PD-STT locks (which makes a huge amount of sense)

 

So now the question for me would be, how do things look for the opponents RWR.

 

TWR with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> large scan volume -> sometimes the RWR would see the F-16 painting it ..

SAM with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> intermittent paints by the radar on the opponent

STT with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> constant pulses from the opponent recognisable by the RWR .. he would now know that you're interested in HIM in particular

STT with FOX1 on the way -> should be the same as with the FOX3, right? if there is no change to a different radar mode, then how would the opponent's RWR give you a missile warning.

 

I had the feeling that in DCS i would get a missile warning as soon as someone else would FOX-1 at me.

 

This should be the case for when it's an F-14, but not for a FA18 or F16 in my opinion.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

[Deano87]

On that note and because I learnt something more.

 

There is CW.

There is PD-STT guidance and P-STT guidance.

 

For the F-14 it will (unless overridden by the RIO) go to a CW mode to give the Sparrow something to home in to. This change in radar mode is detectable for a RWR and it will then most likely tell you loudly that there is most likely a missile incoming. Even though it doesn't detect an active seeker.

 

As for modern variants of the Sparrow they seem to guide in on PD-STT locks (which makes a huge amount of sense)

 

So now the question for me would be, how do things look for the opponents RWR.

 

TWR with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> large scan volume -> sometimes the RWR would see the F-16 painting it ..

SAM with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> intermittent paints by the radar on the opponent

STT with FOX3 on the way before pitbull -> constant pulses from the opponent recognisable by the RWR .. he would now know that you're interested in HIM in particular

STT with FOX1 on the way -> should be the same as with the FOX3, right? if there is no change to a different radar mode, then how would the opponent's RWR give you a missile warning.

 

I had the feeling that in DCS i would get a missile warning as soon as someone else would FOX-1 at me.

 

This should be the case for when it's an F-14, but not for a FA18 or F16 in my opinion.

Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

 

Well.. The F-16 we have doesn't have a FOX-1 so your question isn't really that relevant here tbh. But there is a good thread on the F-18 forum about this very subject. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=262690

[Exorcet]

Way it is done, as you are anyways engaging likely maneuvering targets and last thing you want is a target to break lock by one fast turn or sudden deceleration, and you are there with a multiple fighters where you all each take individual targets and maybe one is holding the situational awareness over datalink.

 

Much higher pK with STT than using TWS or other modes. That at least what real Hornet pilots does (the current one modeled in DCS), so can't be that different for Falcon.

The thing is, if you focus one target you increase the risk of losing SA on everything else and getting killed.

 

 

It's better to TWS if you're outnumbered so you can at least put pressure on everything coming for you rather than leave them free to fire on you.

 

 

With the way the F-16 works in DCS anyway, it's fine to just use TWS by default. Set Azimuth to 20 and bars to 2 and you'll track just about anything. The biggest issue with TWS is the time it needs to build a track file. If you lose a target at short range, then it's best to RWS or go dogfight mode.

[Fri13]

The thing is, if you focus one target you increase the risk of losing SA on everything else and getting killed.

 

You don't, as you have datalink to provide you situational awareness, and your mental picture.

 

 

It's better to TWS if you're outnumbered so you can at least put pressure on everything coming for you rather than leave them free to fire on you.

 

If you are outnumbered, then you are so regardless do you have TWS or not. You trust for numbers in fighters, not in missiles. If enemy has two fighters, you come with four or six. If enemy has four fighters, you come with eight or twelve.

 

With the way the F-16 works in DCS anyway, it's fine to just use TWS by default. Set Azimuth to 20 and bars to 2 and you'll track just about anything. The biggest issue with TWS is the time it needs to build a track file. If you lose a target at short range, then it's best to RWS or go dogfight mode.

 

You just lost your situational awareness by doing so if you don't have a datalink or other means to give you the information what happens outside your very narrow FOV.

 

How the targeting works in DCS, is that radars lock to individual fighter, regardless beam width or the radar resolution. And there seems not to be a targeting gate that you can fool by maneuvering after few sweeps of steady flying and so on likely drop missile pK to low before it goes active.

 

How do you know someone has launched missile at you in TWS, the most obvious one? They start cranking. And if you have a enemy coming at you hot, you assume missile is coming and you maneuver already to kill that missile speed.

 

Taking precautions and denying other possibilities in first place just makes them waste missiles, and opens you to get close.

 

Keeping STT in 2 vs 2 or similar, you know what others see, you maximize your missile pK and you keep them stressing as they hear you continually ringing in ears.

 

When you are hostile, enemy knows it already before you even launch missile. No reasons to try and hide it.

[Frederf]

I'm having some trouble understanding the TWS behavior. Three things, probably all user error, but I've gone through the manual a few times and still don't quite get it.

 

1. I bug a radar contact in the center of my FCR, but the aircraft that actually gets bugged is a good 30~40 degrees left or right of my nose, well outside the boundary of my HUD. No idea what's happening here. It's like the system randomly picks whatever is out there and it's decidedly not what's directly in front of me.

 

2. The manual shows symbology for search targets, track targets, system targets, and bugged targets without IFF. When flying online I get IFF contacts (red triangles) but I have no idea what's a search target, what's a track target, what's a system target, and what's a bugged target because that symbology isn't shown in the manual. What should they look like?

 

3. I'm confused on the switchology for multiple target engagement. The manual says:

 

 

 

Uh....okay. Let me backtrack a couple pages here to connect the dots.

 

Three contacts. I TMS UP on each contact, fire, TMS RIGHT to switch, fire, TMS RIGHT to switch, fire.

 

Is that correct?

 

1. If you put the FCR cursor and designate it should pick the target you designate. If you do other actions like TWS right stepping then it picks what it thinks is the priority/most threatening contact first.

 

2. Search+L16 are white squares inside hollow L16 symbols and tend to change into other symbols pretty quickly. Tank and system tracks with associated L16 identity unfortunately are indistinguishable visually which I think is a mistake in DCS. Bugged target always has a circle around it so you can always tell which it is.

 

You call it "IFF" but it's not IFF, it's Link 16 datalink. That is different than Mode 12345S IFF and different than IDM datalink. Those are three separate systems.

 

3. TMS up is "designate" which increases the lock level of the cursor or bugged target. TMS right steps the bug through available tracks.

 

If you want to engage with up to 6 AMRAAMs you bug a target, fire, bug a new target, fire, and so on. The only way to have all six is to use TWS. But when we get the multi-target RWS-SAM radar mode I recommend that instead even though the maximum is four. One benefit of Two-Target SAM (TTS) or Multi-Target SAM (MTS) is that you can designate what you want to kill as tracks and then quickly step through those tracks to fire missiles without accidentally bugging and shooting at someone you didn't want to.

 

One can argue how useful TWS is under excellent L16-AWACS coverage but realize that TWS is much, much, much older (APG-66 F-16A) than that.

[Nealius]

I get that you need to bug a target, fire, bug a new target, fire, etc., but the switchology is where I have problems. I'll TMS UP on a solid brick and it refuses to bug. Then it will bug, but won't give me any HUD symbology. So I TMS UP again to get HUD symbology. Fire. TMS RIGHT to cycle through targets, but it won't cycle through any targets despite three other solid bricks being right there on my FCR.

[foxwxl]

I get that you need to bug a target, fire, bug a new target, fire, etc., but the switchology is where I have problems. I'll TMS UP on a solid brick and it refuses to bug. Then it will bug, but won't give me any HUD symbology. So I TMS UP again to get HUD symbology. Fire. TMS RIGHT to cycle through targets, but it won't cycle through any targets despite three other solid bricks being right there on my FCR.

 

Like I posted, this is the status of target:

search target(raw contact)->tank target->system target->bug target->STT target

 

A "solid brick" is just a tank target, it needs to be upgraded to a SYSTEM target(open squares with velocity vectors) first, before it can be bugged.

[Frederf]

Yeah you can only step and bug system tracks. Tank tracks can be designated to promote them. You shouldn't use the term brick to describe tank tracks though. That word is reserved for search contacts.

 

 

 

There is also some switchology for automatically promoting all tanks to system en masse.

[Nealius]

So, the last time I tried it, I had one of four contacts an open square with a velocity vector, but I could not get the other three squares to do the same. Not sure what I did wrong, but I keep pressing TMS UP on a solid square and nothing happens until it finally upgraded to a system target, at which point we've closed a solid 10-15nm. Seems like I'm doing something wrong getting it upgraded to a system target but I can't figure out what.

 

search target(raw contact)->tank target->system target->bug target->STT target

 

I need to break this down.

 

Search target | TMS UP --> tank target | TMS UP --> system target | TMS UP --> bug target | TMS UP --> STT target

 

So TMS UP x3, then commence firing and RMS RIGHT to cycle? One of the posts said I only needed TMS UP once.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Nealius

[dawgie79]

So, the last time I tried it, I had one of four contacts an open square with a velocity vector, but I could not get the other three squares to do the same. Not sure what I did wrong, but I keep pressing TMS UP on a solid square and nothing happens until it finally upgraded to a system target, at which point we've closed a solid 10-15nm. Seems like I'm doing something wrong getting it upgraded to a system target but I can't figure out what.

 

 

 

I need to break this down.

 

Search target | TMS UP --> tank target | TMS UP --> system target | TMS UP --> bug target | TMS UP --> STT target

 

So TMS UP x3, then commence firing and RMS RIGHT to cycle? One of the posts said I only needed TMS UP once.

You can do TMS Right, then all track targets get upgraded to system targets.

 

See Wags' vid on TWS for the F-16.

[Nealius]

We sorely need more simple text-based instructionals that can be quickly skimmed. The focus on video tutorials these days is eating up too much of my time.

 

I'll have to run my missions again because TMS right to upgrade everything to a system target didn't work for some reason.

[dawgie79]

From the manual:

System Target. The propose of system targets is to ease designation and tracking of the contacts considered most important. These are displayed as empty boxes and include the velocity vector line and altitude. Track targets can be transitioned to system targets in two ways: either place the radar cursor over a track target and TMS Up on the stick to transition only that target or TMS Right on the stick to transition all track targets to system targets if no other system targets are displayed.

You can even navigate there in under 5 seconds (not trying to be a smartass by the way). :smartass:

[Sarge55]

From the manual:

You can even navigate there in under 5 seconds (not trying to be a smartass by the way). :smartass:

 

Looks like the manual needs a check by a qualified editor :music_whistling:

"Propose" should be "purpose". etal.

 

Otherwise good info. :thumbup: