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[REPORTED]Sensors In The Game Are Cheating Against Helicopters! (updated)

Murey2

By Murey2
in Weapon Bugs

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Murey2

Murey2

Posted
Posted (edited)

Dear ED,

 

 

Can you focus on fixing the sensors in the game e.g.:

 

 

The RADAR of any aircraft in the game can detect and lock on any target even from behind buildings in ACM mode e.g. any jet can detect and lock on helicopters even if the latter is a super real helo pilot that knows how to defeat RADAR in Real life utilizing RADAR shadows...etc!

 

 

The Heat Sensor is also affected with this bug so if you have an Aim-9X (or any heat-seeking missile) you can use the helmet sight to scan for helicopters hiding behind a solid RADAR defeating object e.g. a damn bloody building.

 

 

I was able to lock on a Ka-50 hiding behind a building with a R-73 and Mig-21bis!

 

 

So dear ED please fix these bugs, so I can invest in the game and purchase all the helicopters in the game and the WIP ones so I can enjoy flying them anywhere and at any time, because as for right now the described above and the Super x-ray AI vision doesn't allow me or the people who love to fly Helicopters to enjoy anything but flying in helicopters only servers against ground targets only!!!!!!

 

 

So I hope this get addressed soon, I really want to be able to enjoy flying any where with/against jet's and against AI in a realistically fair way.

 

 

I did some testing with a friend and we will provide the files supporting the above it's being edited now. (Edit: the last link is the vid.)

 

 

Track (7 days valid):

 

https://send.firefox.com/download/270a8f5468e15fda/#H8q4QftRETOMQ_HyL0siug

 

 

the vid below is the tests we did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=yj6Lik2XvGk&feature=emb_logo


Edited by Murey2
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BIGNEWY

BIGNEWY

Posted
  • ED Team
Posted (edited)

Hi have have reported this to the team

 

Your track replay was to long and did not play back correctly for me.

 

I was able to reproduce the IR lock behind a large building but not RADAR.

 

It is worth noting in my test I could lock with AIM-9 X and M but not L

 

If you have a short track demonstrating this please attach it.

 

it should be noted a spinning rotor blade has a large RCS

 

thank you


Edited by BIGNEWY
  • Like 2

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

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Shuenix

Shuenix

Posted
Posted (edited)
Dear ED,

 

 

Can you focus on fixing the sensors in the game e.g.:

 

 

The RADAR of any aircraft in the game can detect and lock on any target even from behind buildings in ACM mode e.g. any jet can detect and lock on helicopters even if the latter is a super real helo pilot that knows how to defeat RADAR in Real life utilizing RADAR shadows...etc!

 

I read somewhere, it's very hard to get an radarlock on a lowflying heli. For me it makes sense. A heli in 10 meter alt. How should the radar know the difference on heli and groundstructures.

 

EDIT: It wasn't something I have read, it was something I have seen. Take a look here:


Edited by Shuenix
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Shadow KT

Shadow KT

Posted
Posted

No where in the video you posted (which is GR video, speaks for its self) or the thread he was quoting did he mention that it is hard to get a radar lock on a helicopter, but just that they are not a good BVR target.... Helicopters are slow (low closure rate => limited missile range), small and nimble and can easily hide behind terrain if needed or mask partially behind trees..... which is why they are a bad BVR target.

 

Helicopters are an extremely easy to acquire radar target..... You know how 5th generation aircraft try to curve their engines inlets, so radars can't see their fan/compressor ? You know how the frequency return of the benign to a radar can tell you what the type of aircraft is (NCTR, which is the reason when you get a fighter hot aspect towards you, your radar can tell what type it is) ?

 

Well guess what.... a helicopter has a huge rotating blade on top of it (well couple of them), visible form all angles, which changes its pitch constantly and spins very fast with variable speeds across its length.

 

Combine all that and you have an extremely easy to detect target for a (Pulse-)Doppler radar, which is based on the change of frequency returns and closure speed.

 

If anything, helicopters are too hard to detect on radar, because they can actually notch it in DCS.

 

All that aside, you shouldn't be able to lock them trough buildings with radar or IR.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Shadow KT

Shadow KT

Posted
Posted (edited)
Hi have have reported this to the team

 

Your track replay was to long and did not play back correctly for me.

 

I was able to reproduce the IR lock behind a large building but not RADAR.

 

It is worth noting in my test I could lock with AIM-9 X and M but not L

 

If you have a short track demonstrating this please attach it.

 

it should be noted a spinning rotor blade has a large RCS

 

thank you

 

Here is a track with radar lock behind buildings:

 

If I can do it, the all seeing AI (which I believe this fella is dealing with) can for sure see him.

 

Same can be achieved in Vegas as well.

Radar lock and track behind buildings .trk


Edited by Shadow KT

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Murey2

Murey2

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Hi have have reported this to the team

 

Your track replay was to long and did not play back correctly for me.

 

I was able to reproduce the IR lock behind a large building but not RADAR.

 

It is worth noting in my test I could lock with AIM-9 X and M but not L

 

If you have a short track demonstrating this please attach it.

 

it should be noted a spinning rotor blade has a large RCS

 

thank you

 

 

 

Hi, in order to reproduce the RADAR lock on from behind buildings use ACM in any jet and you will be able to lock on.

 

 

And me and a friend are working on a video demonstration of that. I thought it will be finished to day but we had an issue I hope tomorrow it will be ready.

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Murey2

Murey2

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Posted
I read somewhere, it's very hard to get an radarlock on a lowflying heli. For me it makes sense. A heli in 10 meter alt. How should the radar know the difference on heli and groundstructures.

 

EDIT: It wasn't something I have read, it was something I have seen. Take a look here:

 

No where in the video you posted (which is GR video, speaks for its self) or the thread he was quoting did he mention that it is hard to get a radar lock on a helicopter, but just that they are not a good BVR target.... Helicopters are slow (low closure rate => limited missile range), small and nimble and can easily hide behind terrain if needed or mask partially behind trees..... which is why they are a bad BVR target.

 

Helicopters are an extremely easy to acquire radar target..... You know how 5th generation aircraft try to curve their engines inlets, so radars can't see their fan/compressor ? You know how the frequency return of the benign to a radar can tell you what the type of aircraft is (NCTR, which is the reason when you get a fighter hot aspect towards you, your radar can tell what type it is) ?

 

Well guess what.... a helicopter has a huge rotating blade on top of it (well couple of them), visible form all angles, which changes its pitch constantly and spins very fast with variable speeds across its length.

 

Combine all that and you have an extremely easy to detect target for a (Pulse-)Doppler radar, which is based on the change of frequency returns and closure speed.

 

If anything, helicopters are too hard to detect on radar, because they can actually notch it in DCS.

 

All that aside, you shouldn't be able to lock them trough buildings with radar or IR.

 

 

Hi guys.

 

 

what you are talking about is not what I'm complaining about! the issue I'm talking about is RADAR and heat lock on from behind buildings and other objects... which we all know it's not how it should be!

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Shuenix

Shuenix

Posted
Posted
No where in the video you posted (which is GR video, speaks for its self) or the thread he was quoting did he mention that it is hard to get a radar lock on a helicopter, but just that they are not a good BVR target....

Thats right, but the author says the have to come in with guns. If it was easy with radars, then they don't need to go in with guns.

 

I don't know who is right, but it does make sense to me.

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Shuenix

Shuenix

Posted
Posted
Hi guys.

 

 

what you are talking about is not what I'm complaining about! the issue I'm talking about is RADAR and heat lock on from behind buildings and other objects... which we all know it's not how it should be!

 

I wrote it to support you. Off course no radar lock behind obsticles. I just added, that asfaik it's hard to get a radar lock on a low flying heli at all.

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Murey2

Murey2

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I wrote it to support you. Off course no radar lock behind obsticles. I just added, that asfaik it's hard to get a radar lock on a low flying heli at all.

 

 

Thank you for the support, I know, I just felt that it need of clarifying.

 

 

edit:

 

 

I wrote it to support you. Off course no radar lock behind obsticles. I just added, that asfaik it's hard to get a radar lock on a low flying heli at all.

 

 

What do we have as a evidence for that? I'm looking for any piece of evidence that can help DCS to correct the RADAR behavior...

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Shadow KT

Shadow KT

Posted
Posted

I already provided a track with radar locking behind buildings ...

 

Here is a track with radar lock behind buildings:

 

If I can do it, the all seeing AI (which I believe this fella is dealing with) can for sure see him.

 

Same can be achieved in Vegas as well.

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Shuenix

Shuenix

Posted
Posted
Thank you for the support, I know, I just felt that it need of clarifying.

 

 

edit:

 

 

 

 

 

What do we have as a evidence for that? I'm looking for any piece of evidence that can help DCS to correct the RADAR behavior...

 

I just stumbled over this Grim Reaper video.

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Murey2

Murey2

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Posted (edited)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=yj6Lik2XvGk&feature=emb_logo

 

 

Thanks to my friend this footage is done and in it you find the many tests we have done to test RADAR and Heat Sensors...

 

 

Edit: as you can see in the vid. both RADAR and Heat sensors are able to lock on target's from behind covers... Against jet's that is a problem, but against HELICOPTERS that's a disaster!!! Now helos have no where to hide!!! Above all it's not realistic!


Edited by Murey2
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Murey2

Murey2

Posted
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Posted
Hi have have reported this to the team

 

Your track replay was to long and did not play back correctly for me.

 

I was able to reproduce the IR lock behind a large building but not RADAR.

 

It is worth noting in my test I could lock with AIM-9 X and M but not L

 

If you have a short track demonstrating this please attach it.

 

it should be noted a spinning rotor blade has a large RCS

 

thank you

 

 

Hi BIGNEWY,

 

 

Above in my last comment you can see in the video the tests we have done and you can see how both RADAR and heat is working through buildings...!!!

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  • 3 weeks later...
TAW_Blaze

TAW_Blaze

Posted
Posted

Why do you think this is a bug? It's not.. buildings simply do not prevent radar line of sight in the simulated environment, it's rather a lack of feature.

 

Besides, actually locking choppers should be significantly easier than it is, but the rotor doppler return is not modeled at all.

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  • 1 year later...
Mad_Shell

Mad_Shell

Posted
Posted (edited)

Up! This is a big problem for helicopter players. And not only because of jets more easily targetting helicopters. When I play the Gazelle Mistral, I can remain below trees and buildings, just do a 360 to scan the whole area around me, and get a fox 2 lock on any enemy helicopter even if there are 3 trees and 5 buildings between him and me, denying him any way to hide... Radar and IR missiles continuing to track no matter how many trees and buildings you put between you and them is a problem too, as if you hide just behind a tree, the missile will impact this tree, and the blast is often enough to damage or kill you.


Edited by Mad_Shell
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71st_Mastiff

71st_Mastiff

Posted
Posted
On 9/3/2023 at 3:04 PM, Flappie said:

Part of the problem was recently addressed in OB (August 16th):

Is it any better for you, now?

Before the helicopter's where brought in; I dont think ED had them in mind down low for radar returns; until latest builds with Helicopters.

yes those rotors give off a huge signature in real life, so out in open there easy to see. (on radar)

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