pulling back on the stick for better braking...

[fitness88]

I read in the forums pulling back on the stick gives you better braking after touchdown.

I've tried it several times but can't really tell if it's helping.

Any input on this would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[G B]

IRL that is normal to do on landing (or aborted takeoff) below 100 knots.

[Tholozor]

Correct, you'd want to pull aft on the stick the minimum distance required to engage maximum stabilator deflection to act as an air brake (there's a warning in the NATOPS regarding pulling the stick back too far with the seat adjusted a certain way that causes the weapon select switch to snag on the ejection handle and possibly cause an uncommanded ejection).

 

Combine that with the speed brake and keeping the landing weight restrictions in mind, you can stop the Hornet fairly quickly, just never as much as the Tomcat can (the larger stabs and spoilers are absolute beast at that).

[Deano87]

There's a warning in the NATOPS regarding pulling the stick back too far with the seat adjusted a certain way that causes the weapon select switch to snag on the ejection handle and possibly cause an uncommanded ejection.

 

:huh: That sounds like one of those things somebody found out the hard way lol. Ouch.

[maxTRX]

:huh: That sounds like one of those things somebody found out the hard way lol. Ouch.

:huh:Now ffs , I thought the only thing I could blame the weapon select switch for was accidental bumping into A/A mode.:doh: So... wait a minute, how far would I need to pull the handle to initiate the punch out? … in inches.

[Deano87]

:huh:Now ffs , I thought the only thing I could blame the weapon select switch for was accidental bumping into A/A mode.:doh: So... wait a minute, how far would I need to pull the handle to initiate the punch out? … in inches.

 

I don't know in inches, i'd guess 1 or 2.. its more about force, it takes about 30lb of force to remove the handle from its housing and then about 50lb of force to activate one or both of the "initiators".

[Tholozor]

Actually, the NATOPS does give the exact number: 1.75 inches of the top limit (pretty damn close Deano!).

[fitness88]

Actually I wanted to know if it was in fact modelled into the DCS FA-18?

If so can you quantify it a bit?

[JUICE-AWG]

IRL that is normal to do on landing (or aborted takeoff) below 100 knots.

Hi Greg!

 

Yes, and if you pull aft stick at over 120 KIAS, and have a light weapons/fuel load, you could get inadvertent nosewheel rotation. GB, is that the published speed?

 

I go full stick back, full speed-brake, and raise the flaps to put more weight on wheels for anti-skid breaking once IAS stops registering at 48 kts.

[maxTRX]

In my extensive DCS Hornet career I've never had to worry about doing anything else other then moving the throttles slightly forward then back to the stops (to bring the motors to ground idle) right after touch down. On short runways I would extend the speedbrake and hit the toe brakes around 90ish. I've seen the vids showing Hornets flaring mildly on touchdown but during normal landings with no flare, I thought it was FCS doing all the work on roll-out. It controlled the the stabs angle down to certain speed. Also, after any of 2 wheels had weight on them the FCS was reconfiguring the jet for possible go around. Is it how it happens in RW Hornet, GB?

[fitness88]

Hi Greg!

 

Yes, and if you pull aft stick at over 120 KIAS, and have a light weapons/fuel load, you could get inadvertent nosewheel rotation. GB, is that the published speed?

 

I go full stick back, full speed-brake, and raise the flaps to put more weight on wheels for anti-skid breaking once IAS stops registering at 48 kts.

 

Do you notice a difference in stopping distance over just braking?

[Tom Kazansky]

did some tests and the results are surprising.

 

here is what I did:

 

 

made a simple mission with an almost empty Hornet on a runway.

 

timescale to -4x to be accurate enough.

 

full wheelbrakes

 

half flaps

 

engaged full afterburner and released the brakes (allways in the same move for every test)

 

let the IAS get to 80 knots

 

throttle cut off (no wheel or air braking)

 

and now at this point:

 

 

Test 1: no stick input (take off trim 12)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 102 knots

 

Test 2: stick pulled back to max (FCS showed 24 up)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 107 knots

 

found it strange so:

 

Test 3: stick full forward (FCS showed 4 up)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 98 knots

 

repeated all tests more than 3 times each. same results (exactly)

 

shouldn't be like that, should it?

 

 

 

UPDATE:

 

had some time to do those test with the difference to apply full wheelbrakes (antiskid ON) at the moment I cut off the throttle.

 

result was: the speed at the predefined mark on the runway was the same for all three tests! (67 knots)

 

so there seemed to be no influence from the stick input at all with full wheelbrakes applied.

 

 

UPDATE2:

 

the best decelerating performance I get like this:

 

turn off antiskid

 

full wheelbrakes

 

full airbrakes

 

(stick pull/push made no difference)

 

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 50 knots

 

(btw: full flaps reduce the speed as expected by some knots. but I did not test all configurations with full flaps)

Edited March 2, 2020 by Tom Kazansky

[G B]

Hi Greg!

 

Yes, and if you pull aft stick at over 120 KIAS, and have a light weapons/fuel load, you could get inadvertent nosewheel rotation. GB, is that the published speed?

 

I go full stick back, full speed-brake, and raise the flaps to put more weight on wheels for anti-skid breaking once IAS stops registering at 48 kts.

 

I don’t recall being taught a published speed. We simply wait until it says 100 in the HUD and then pull back. Simple as that. I would imagine that with very light loads and full flaps that 1200 could cause a rotation with full aft stick (not that you’d go flying).

 

Realize your technique that you described is not at all ever done IRL (if you care). Speedbrakes are extended upon touchdown, stick aft is applied below 100, flaps are never retracted on the rollout. On sufficiently long runways, pilots will give the brakes a quick test after touchdown and then let the jet roll until 100 or less before getting on the brakes to exit the runway. Of course on runways that aren’t that long, brakes will be applied as required.

[G B]

In my extensive DCS Hornet career I've never had to worry about doing anything else other then moving the throttles slightly forward then back to the stops (to bring the motors to ground idle) right after touch down. On short runways I would extend the speedbrake and hit the toe brakes around 90ish. I've seen the vids showing Hornets flaring mildly on touchdown but during normal landings with no flare, I thought it was FCS doing all the work on roll-out. It controlled the the stabs angle down to certain speed. Also, after any of 2 wheels had weight on them the FCS was reconfiguring the jet for possible go around. Is it how it happens in RW Hornet, GB?

 

The FCS is doing some of the work. Not all of it. The technique I described above is the way it is done. Some of the answers you are looking for are in Chapter 11. Additionally, in other sections you may read about rudder toe-in, which enhances takeoff, go-around, and bolter capability (and explains why more rotation is needed in GAIN ORIDE).

[fitness88]

did some tests and the results are surprising.

 

here is what I did:

 

 

made a simple mission with an almost empty Hornet on a runway.

 

timescale to -4x to be accurate enough.

 

full wheelbrakes

 

half flaps

 

engaged full afterburner and released the brakes (allways in the same move for every test)

 

let the IAS get to 80 knots

 

throttle cut off (no wheel or air braking)

 

and now at this point:

 

 

Test 1: no stick input (take off trim 12)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 102 knots

 

Test 2: stick pulled back to max (FCS showed 24 up)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 107 knots

 

found it strange so:

 

Test 3: stick full forward (FCS showed 4 up)

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 98 knots

 

repeated all tests more than 3 times each. same results (exactly)

 

shouldn't be like that, should it?

 

 

 

UPDATE:

 

had some time to do those test with the difference to apply full wheelbrakes (antiskid ON) at the moment I cut off the throttle.

 

result was: the speed at the predefined mark on the runway was the same for all three tests! (67 knots)

 

so there seemed to be no influence from the stick input at all with full wheelbrakes applied.

 

 

UPDATE2:

 

the best decelerating performance I get like this:

 

turn off antiskid

 

full wheelbrakes

 

full airbrakes

 

(stick pull/push made no difference)

 

speed at a predefined mark on the runway: 50 knots

 

(btw: full flaps reduce the speed as expected by some knots. but I did not test all configurations with full flaps)

 

Thanks for the modelled test results. I find full wheel brakes w/antiskid off causes uncontrollable swerving unless you pump the brakes, but then you're doing your own antiskid application.

[G B]

Thanks for the modelled test results. I find full wheel brakes w/antiskid off causes uncontrollable swerving unless you pump the brakes, but then you're doing your own antiskid application.

 

Full brakes with anti skid off should cause your tires to explode rather quickly.

[Pikey]

I do this reflexivly because on the Tomcat it does work and also gives you lateral control on the centreline without tocuhing rudder. But they are pretty big surfaces and on the Hornet I can't get any lateral movement, no increased noticeable braking.

 

I can only go by my gut feeling, it's better a pilot responds, but I'd say it should have more noticeable effect than it does. Of course. I simply do not know, but there is documentation and process around this point that wouldnt have been written unless it was actually useful, so the question is very worthwhile.

[Tom Kazansky]

Full brakes with anti skid off should cause your tires to explode rather quickly.

 

 

DCS's FA-18C "antiskid on and off braking behaviour" is the subject for quite some threads here in the forum. hope it is just WIP.

[JUICE-AWG]

In my extensive DCS Hornet career I've never had to worry about doing anything else other then moving the throttles slightly forward then back to the stops (to bring the motors to ground idle) right after touch down. On short runways I would extend the speedbrake and hit the toe brakes around 90ish. I've seen the vids showing Hornets flaring mildly on touchdown but during normal landings with no flare, I thought it was FCS doing all the work on roll-out. It controlled the the stabs angle down to certain speed. Also, after any of 2 wheels had weight on them the FCS was reconfiguring the jet for possible go around. Is it how it happens in RW Hornet, GB?

 

 

I think that's an excellent point as I've been flying with guys who pull back to the idle stops but the engines still produce thrust. I had the Hornet when I transitioned from the X52 to the TM Warthog HOTAS and a friend gave me a tip day one on setting user curves for the Hornet when using my new HOTAS...and it seems to be right on for RPMs, Power Management, and Performance Feedback. I'll see if I can post a pic of what I set for both left and right...and my settings seem to be perfect for the filed-down AB detent for push through past buster.

[JUICE-AWG]

I don’t recall being taught a published speed. We simply wait until it says 100 in the HUD and then pull back. Simple as that. I would imagine that with very light loads and full flaps that 1200 could cause a rotation with full aft stick (not that you’d go flying).

 

Realize your technique that you described is not at all ever done IRL (if you care). Speedbrakes are extended upon touchdown, stick aft is applied below 100, flaps are never retracted on the rollout. On sufficiently long runways, pilots will give the brakes a quick test after touchdown and then let the jet roll until 100 or less before getting on the brakes to exit the runway. Of course on runways that aren’t that long, brakes will be applied as required.[/quote

 

That's what I've seen too sir, I've never gone flying after that, but instead only noticed WOW flux with NWS going offline. Is the WOW switch in the nose gear or on mains?

[G B]

I don’t recall being taught a published speed. We simply wait until it says 100 in the HUD and then pull back. Simple as that. I would imagine that with very light loads and full flaps that 1200 could cause a rotation with full aft stick (not that you’d go flying).

 

Realize your technique that you described is not at all ever done IRL (if you care). Speedbrakes are extended upon touchdown, stick aft is applied below 100, flaps are never retracted on the rollout. On sufficiently long runways, pilots will give the brakes a quick test after touchdown and then let the jet roll until 100 or less before getting on the brakes to exit the runway. Of course on runways that aren’t that long, brakes will be applied as required.[/quote

 

That's what I've seen too sir, I've never gone flying after that, but instead only noticed WOW flux with NWS going offline. Is the WOW switch in the nose gear or on mains?

 

There is a page on Weight On Wheels system failure that may have the answers you seek :).

 

Edit: this was meant to quote JUICE

Edited March 3, 2020 by G B

[majapahit]

When in doubt (heavy and these dumb DCS F18 brakes when landed long on a short runway) raise the flaps also, never mind 'procedure'.

[maxTRX]

When in doubt (heavy and these dumb DCS F18 brakes when landed long on a short runway) raise the flaps also, never mind 'procedure'.

 

Flaps up in the Hornet = Flaps Auto.

 

Edit: Never mind. I've been reading some stuff related to Super Hornets... how flap scheduling, vertical stabs, speed brake, etc. are managed, with WoW or WoffW. After peeking into C natops I realized there was few differences. So yes, Flaps Auto with WoW means TEF and LEF = 0

Edited March 3, 2020 by Gripes323

[Brun]

When in doubt (heavy and these dumb DCS F18 brakes when landed long on a short runway) raise the flaps also, never mind 'procedure'.

If the brakes can't slow the aircraft, more drag may have a greater effect than more weight on wheels.