AWACS DL not realistic?

[shagrat]

What's cool about JF-17 DL is that it can geolocate even not-emitting ground radars... :doh:

As I said, datalink can do this in real life, as it is a LINK of ALL sources of information (Satellite images, troops on the ground, surveillance aircraft, etc.) that can come from hosts, but also manually input through a command center... think of radio stations communicating sightings of speed cameras. How would the guy in the radio station know?! Somebody called them and told them.

[RichardG]

This is all because of ED not having a working data-tape for the F-18.

 

Pre-planned, and known ground sams/radars (from whatever intelligence source, not real time) are added as positions in the HSD pre-flight on the tape.

 

To simulates that, if you remember, ED had all ground stations magically appear in the F18 HSD, as if they were added to the data tape pre-flight, unless the option to hide them was selected in the mission editor. It is possible to hide them from the HSD with this option.

 

Join a mission without that option, and voila!, you can magically see all the units. And because that is core DCS mission editor code, it affects the Jeff the same way.

 

They aren't simulating complex data-links, its just a mission editor option.

Edited April 11, 2020 by RichardG

[AeriaGloria]

This is all because of ED not having a working data-tape for the F-18.

 

Pre-planned, and known ground sams/radars (from whatever intelligence source, not real time) are added as positions in the HSD pre-flight on the tape.

 

To simulates that, if you remember, ED had all ground stations magically appear in the F18 HSD, as if they were added to the data tape pre-flight, unless the option to hide them was selected in the mission editor. It is possible to hide them from the HSD with this option.

 

Join a mission without that option, and voila!, you can magically see all the units. And because that is core DCS mission editor code, it affects the Jeff the same way.

 

They aren't simulating complex data-links, its just a mission editor option.

 

You’re saying the Jeff has the same setting?

[J20Stronk]

What's cool about JF-17 DL is that it can geolocate even not-emitting ground radars... :doh:

 

TF are you talking about?

 

It is impossible to pinpoint radars unless you have the KG-600 and they are on, or you have been prebriefed via F10 spectator view or mission briefing.

 

The JF doesn't have pre-loaded SAM threat rings and locations unlike the F-16/8 which, as stated by others, is because of the lack of DTU for them. Hence they simply have them visible on HSD/SA by default unless specified in the ME. JF doesn't have PB SAM threat rings at all.

[amalahama]

TF are you talking about?

 

It is impossible to pinpoint radars unless you have the KG-600 and they are on, or you have been prebriefed via F10 spectator view or mission briefing.

 

The JF doesn't have pre-loaded SAM threat rings and locations unlike the F-16/8 which, as stated by others, is because of the lack of DTU for them. Hence they simply have them visible on HSD/SA by default unless specified in the ME. JF doesn't have PB SAM threat rings at all.

 

We're talking about datalinked air defences, not the ones detected by the ASPJ

[J20Stronk]

We're talking about datalinked air defences, not the ones detected by the ASPJ

 

And JF can't see them through D/L unless they (or literally any other thing detected by its radar.) are being constantly tracked by AG radar from another JF, which is almost never.

 

JF has no Threat rings or SAM locations a-la F-16/8.

[shaHeen-1]

Just to be clear when I said threat rings I meant the rings of the HSD

[amalahama]

And JF can't see them through D/L unless they (or literally any other thing detected by its radar.) are being constantly tracked by AG radar from another JF, which is almost never.

 

Oh you are wrong, indeed it can, regardless whether the radar is emitting. Hence the discussion. Without range rings, though.

[J20Stronk]

Oh you are wrong, indeed it can, regardless whether the radar is emitting. Hence the discussion. Without range rings, though.

 

Screens pls.

 

I've been flying this thing almost exclusively since launch, and not once have I seen it mark SAMs through D/L without them emmiting or beimg spotted by AGR

[foxwxl]

Oh you are wrong, indeed it can, regardless whether the radar is emitting. Hence the discussion. Without range rings, though.

 

The DL does not pass over Air Defence position like 16/18, it just pass targets sighted by AG radar(ie. from GMTI), no matter it is a tank or a SAM.

[Floydii]

Oh you are wrong, indeed it can, regardless whether the radar is emitting. Hence the discussion. Without range rings, though.

 

Rather than continuing to make random claims of fact, prove it.

[amalahama]

Rather than continuing to make random claims of fact, prove it.

 

I tried yesterday night

 

Not only SAMs are automatically geolocated, so are any kind of ground units as well.

 

I arranged several T-72 static tanks with an AI JF-17 nearby and it broadcasted everything instantly with deadly precision.

 

I hate this kind of unrealistic, god-eye gadgets, not only they are not realistic at all, but also they destroy immersion completely

[foxwxl]

I tried yesterday night

 

Not only SAMs are automatically geolocated, so are any kind of ground units as well.

 

I arranged several T-72 static tanks with an AI JF-17 nearby and it broadcasted everything instantly with deadly precision.

 

I hate this kind of unrealistic, god-eye gadgets, not only they are not realistic at all, but also they destroy immersion completely

 

I don't know why you think this as "unrealistic", since the radar has pickup these contact, you've got a X band fire control radar which mean to be precise. If the radar can pick them up, the radar can get their position and coordinates, there is no problem to broadcast these data into DL newwork.

 

If you know the f-16 well, the IDM can datalink AG radar cursor position or waypoint data as well.

[shagrat]

 

 

I hate this kind of unrealistic, god-eye gadgets, not only they are not realistic at all, but also they destroy immersion completely

I already pointed to very detailed information about how datalink works and that the "link" actually means it links ALL donors information into the network. As donors can be Jets, AWACS, JSTARs, even satellite information and radio transmitted coordinates from propeller planes, ground crews of transport trucks and special forces, collected and put into the network by a Command and Control Center and ALL this information "magically" ruins the enemies immersion, when B-1B drop a GBU-38 on their head from 28,000ft through an overcast and they never knew what hit them.

Welcome to the modern battlefield. It's the reason datalink was such a game changer when introduced and why the first targets in a conflict are usually command centers and communications hubs etc.

 

Edit: to be clear a single Jet detecting the ground forces can distribute their location.

Edited April 20, 2020 by shagrat

[dorianR666]

If the radar can pick them up, the radar can get their position and coordinates, there is no problem to broadcast these data into DL newwork.

will players have the ability to transmit ground targets to datalink like AI too? ED plans to implement the similar TXDSG in hornet.

[foxwxl]

will players have the ability to transmit ground targets to datalink like AI too? ED plans to implement the similar TXDSG in hornet.

 

U already did, once a ground target is sighted by AG radar, the infomation is now passed through the newwork. You will see a boat like symol on HSD(your JF17 teammate will see it too).

 

(Note. AG datalink is still WIP, its function/behavior may change in later version.)

[amalahama]

I already pointed to very detailed information about how datalink works and that the "link" actually means it links ALL donors information into the network. As donors can be Jets, AWACS, JSTARs, even satellite information and radio transmitted coordinates from propeller planes, ground crews of transport trucks and special forces, collected and put into the network by a Command and Control Center and ALL this information "magically" ruins the enemies immersion, when B-1B drop a GBU-38 on their head from 28,000ft through an overcast and they never knew what hit them.

Welcome to the modern battlefield. It's the reason datalink was such a game changer when introduced and why the first targets in a conflict are usually command centers and communications hubs etc.

 

Edit: to be clear a single Jet detecting the ground forces can distribute their location.

 

 

I'm gonna try to be more precise, I also work in the business and I know how JTIDS works; my concern is not on the type of information distributed, but on the absolutely accuracy, 100% rate of detection of relatively complex elements by simple sensors; just run this example in game:

 

 

Two JF-17, player + AI, no AWACS. Then you put a lot of static tanks, non emitting air defences around (emphasis on bolded words). When the AI JF-17 gets close enough, it will literally broadcast EVERYTHING around it with deadly precision. And it's not a matter of "if JF-17 radar sees it, then it should be transmitted", because a static target requires manual cueing, and Jeff's radar doesn't allow ground target multi tracking. See?

[foxwxl]

I'm gonna try to be more precise, I also work in the business and I know how JTIDS works; my concern is not on the type of information distributed, but on the absolutely accuracy, 100% rate of detection of relatively complex elements by simple sensors; just run this example in game:

 

 

Two JF-17, player + AI, no AWACS. Then you put a lot of static tanks, non emitting air defences around (emphasis on bolded words). When the AI JF-17 gets close enough, it will literally broadcast EVERYTHING around it with deadly precision. And it's not a matter of "if JF-17 radar sees it, then it should be transmitted", because a static target requires manual cueing, and Jeff's radar doesn't allow ground target multi tracking. See?

 

Static object DL problem already been notified internally, and it is likely to be removed(except the static ship from SEA1/SEA2 or target under FTT) in the future.

Edited April 21, 2020 by foxwxl

[shagrat]

I'm gonna try to be more precise, I also work in the business and I know how JTIDS works; my concern is not on the type of information distributed, but on the absolutely accuracy, 100% rate of detection of relatively complex elements by simple sensors; just run this example in game:

 

 

Two JF-17, player + AI, no AWACS. Then you put a lot of static tanks, non emitting air defences around (emphasis on bolded words). When the AI JF-17 gets close enough, it will literally broadcast EVERYTHING around it with deadly precision. And it's not a matter of "if JF-17 radar sees it, then it should be transmitted", because a static target requires manual cueing, and Jeff's radar doesn't allow ground target multi tracking. See?

Ok, agreed on static objects. Though if you can see them, you can radio CCC and tell them... but for DCS purposes seeing all static units seems a bit drastic.

[amalahama]

Static object DL problem already been notified internally, and it is likely to be removed(except the static ship from SEA1/SEA2 or target under FTT) in the future.

 

That would be a nice start. I would suggest open up the casuistry in order to limit DL AG targets to:

 

- AWACS: AA contacts + Emitting air defences (so ESM can geolocate) + all sea contacts (special mode exists in E-3/E-2) , but no ground targets. 360º coverage

-Standard JF-17: AA contacts or FTT/tracked SEA/GMTI target, coverage limited to radar cone. Emitting air defences also only if aircraft equipped with ASPJ, 360º coverage

- Other Link17 donors: AA contacts or FTT/tracked SEA/GMTI target, radar cone coverage

[shagrat]

That would be a nice start. I would suggest open up the casuistry in order to limit DL AG targets to:

 

- AWACS: AA contacts + Emitting air defences (so ESM can geolocate) + all sea contacts (special mode exists in E-3/E-2) , but no ground targets. 360º coverage

-Standard JF-17: AA contacts or FTT/tracked SEA/GMTI target, coverage limited to radar cone. Emitting air defences also only if aircraft equipped with ASPJ, 360º coverage

- Other Link17 donors: AA contacts or FTT/tracked SEA/GMTI target, radar cone coverage

Maybe Deka can make sure the JF-17 reads the hidden status for ground units similar to the F/A-18C SA page showing SAM Sites "known" through CCC planning cells?

That would provide Mission Builders with the option to deliberately build a picture of the battlefield...