TheGuardian Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 I think it is kinda sad that we are pushing the same troubles we have with EA on a brand new 3rd Party Dev. Give the guys a chance. Just because ED screwed you guys over on EA (your words, not mine) doesn't mean these guys will. People complaining about EA or not right now are part of the problem in DCS.
QuiGon Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Just because ED screwed you guys over on EA (your words, not mine) Uhm what? I'm pretty sure ED communicated pretty clearly what ED means and that a feature complete release for both, the Viper and the Hornet will come later (by the end of this year). I fail to see any screwing there... Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
TheGuardian Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Uhm what? I'm pretty sure ED communicated pretty clearly what ED means and that a feature complete release for both, the Viper and the Hornet will come later (by the end of this year). I fail to see any screwing there... They didn't screw me over, I knew what EA was and was not. That line was intended for those that failed to understand what EA is.
Fri13 Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 People should stop their wishes that module comes either as soon as possible or ready as possible by their expectations. How about look the module from the developers/studio perspective? We already know that a good module takes about 3-5 years in development depending its complexity. And through whole that time, developers needs to get food on table, pay their bills etc etc. And if someone thinks that module that takes easily six figures in dollars to develop, is possible by taking a loan and then just extend it to that 5 years and try to get module out finished there. If you have already business running, you have constant income flow and you have managed to collect already money for the module, then you are far better position than studios that are just starting their business. And for those studios, Early Access can be extremely important that is ruling for them that do they make it or not. So it becomes as well about supporting the development to get Early Access with bare bones out, as some already buy it then, some buy later when features start to fall in and that way gets income flow for the future. We all benefit from it that we have multiple successful studios that can maintain their products and simultaneously start developing new ones. And expecting that studios could just wait and drop a finished product out requires good business plan, as not all can do what some has managed to do. i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S. i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
DBFlyguy Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) Anyone asking for another "early access" module after all the headaches of the ones from ED really needs to have their purchasing privileges revoked. Seriously. HB and Deka are how you do modules, get them to as complete as possible then release them, not rushing things out just to feed the "Gimmie gimmie" crowd who will literally buy anything. I swear some these folks would buy an early access paper airplane if ED released it :no_sad: Edited April 13, 2020 by DBFlyguy "Straighten up and fly right"
TheGuardian Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Anyone asking for another "early access" module after all the headaches of the ones from ED really needs to have their purchasing privileges revoked. Seriously. HB and Deka are how you do modules, get them to as complete as possible then release them, not rushing things out just to feed the "Gimmie gimmie" crowd who will literally buy anything. I swear some these folks would buy an early access paper airplane if ED released it :no_sad: that is a pretty ignorant statement. I'm sorry, you don't get to decide what people can and cannot buy. There is no evidence that TrueGrit will let drop the ball here. Like Fri said, EA is a choice that needs to be made by them, not us. If ED scared you off EA, that's on you man. My "suggestion" would be to read up on what you're about to purchase and make an informed choice. But then again some always have to have something to hate on.
QuiGon Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 They didn't screw me over, I knew what EA was and was not. That line was intended for those that failed to understand what EA is. My comment wasn't aimed at you, but at the people you talked about ;) Anyone asking for another "early access" module after all the headaches of the ones from ED really needs to have their purchasing privileges revoked. Seriously. HB and Deka are how you do modules, get them to as complete as possible then release them, not rushing things out just to feed the "Gimmie gimmie" crowd who will literally buy anything. I swear some these folks would buy an early access paper airplane if ED released it :no_sad: Speak for yourself! I'm very happy how ED released the Hornet and the Viper. Instead of having to wait untill the end of 2020 to be able to play them I can already enjoy them, while ED is making constant progress completing them. That's exactly how I like it. And in regards to HB, you apparently don't fly the Viggen, because this bird is being stuck in Early Access for many years with incredible slow progress... Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
DBFlyguy Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 that is a pretty ignorant statement. I'm sorry, you don't get to decide what people can and cannot buy. There is no evidence that TrueGrit will let drop the ball here. Like Fri said, EA is a choice that needs to be made by them, not us. If ED scared you off EA, that's on you man. My "suggestion" would be to read up on what you're about to purchase and make an informed choice. But then again some always have to have something to hate on. Your first mistake was thinking I gave two craps about what you considered ignorant :lol: like seriously who are you :huh: TrueGrit can do whatever they want but the "take my money and give it to me now" crowd is going to be the death of this sim sooner than later. "Straighten up and fly right"
DBFlyguy Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 My comment wasn't aimed at you, but at the people you talked about ;) Speak for yourself! I'm very happy how ED released the Hornet and the Viper. Instead of having to wait untill the end of 2020 to be able to play them I can already enjoy them, while ED is making constant progress completing them. That's exactly how I like it. And in regards to HB, you apparently don't fly the Viggen, because this bird is being stuck in Early Access for many years with incredible slow progress... If you were honestly "happy" on how the Viper was released... there is probably nothing you wouldn't be "happy" about concerning ED. Even the staunchest of DCS fans could see that is not how to release a module, ED would never have cleared a 3rd party to release a module in that state. I don't have the Viggen, no desire to. I have the Tomcat and that was released in a heck of a lot better state than the Viper was. Was it perfect on release, no but at least it wasn't the garbage we got with the Viper on release. "Straighten up and fly right"
VirusAM Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Hello all, Since I'm one of those eagerly awaiting a typhoon as soon as possible, I would like to suggest truegrit an early access scheme to consider. First of all let me say that the EA horse has been beaten to dead in these forum and its not for everyone, so those of you who hate this scheme please stay away. Back to the point, thinking of an EA for the typhoon I would love truegrit could think, establish and present their future customers with an EA access roadmap. This roadmap should contain estimates dates so no one feel annoyed or deceived. This are not set in stones but could give everyone a rough estimation. Let me start this exercise with some made up roadmap similar to what i have in mind. -Phase 1 IOC (Initial operational cappability): In this first phase truegrit could only focus in the FM, 3D art (cockpit and exterior) and basic systems (no advance navigation, no A2G, no DASS, no link16...). Add to that very basic air to air radar festures with sidewinders and amraam maybe. As you can see there is not a lot to do here just train on the plane and help fund the project in case you believe in it. This could maybe be introduced in 6-9 months and should not last more than 6 months up to the introduction of phase 2. Phase 2: In this phase truegrit could introduce some advance navigation functionality, maybe simple link16 and the striker helmet with iris-t and a bit more functionality to the radar. Maybe 6/8 months here would be realistic. Phase 3: after 1 year/12 month in EA we should expect a more mature product, almost complete air to air radar functionality coupled with defensive systems and polished navigation and link16/MIDS. Also basic air to ground. Another 6/8 months. Phase 4: 8 more months to complete all the set of tools this beaty have: pod, dass, maybe meteor...you name it. As you imagine you can brake this as much as you want until the product leaves the EA in 2/3 years (if its similar to other complex ED modules. I hope some of you and specially Truegrit like and consider the idea. Regards, Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk It is what I think as well. They could mimic the way the Ef2000 entered into service.... First basic stage...with most aircraft systems ready (not talking about combat systems only aircraft ones) so one could start to learn startup, navigation, procedures and obviously aircraft handling. Then the real entering into service with air to air basics....so radar amraams and sidewinders M like the real aircraft in 2004 for intercept role. Later defensive systems, hmd and basic air to ground and then as you said. Who don’t want EA simply please don’t buy it. I want EA. I had a lot of fun with the Hornet since day1...and i liked being not able to do everything from the start, that way i was forced to learn the basics first, with all the systems and procedures in the proper manner. So who don’t want early access, don’t buy and wait until it is more complete. Anyway listening truegrit interview with grim reapers i think what we wrote here will be similar to the path they will follow. R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 N/A Realsimulator FFSB MKII Ultra+F-16 grip+F/A-18 grip, VKB Stecs Max, VKB T-Rudder MKV, Razer Tartarus V2 Secrets Lab Tytan, Monstertech ChairMounts
VirusAM Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Please: Not this early access crap! I don’t understand this statement.... Just don’t buy in early access R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 N/A Realsimulator FFSB MKII Ultra+F-16 grip+F/A-18 grip, VKB Stecs Max, VKB T-Rudder MKV, Razer Tartarus V2 Secrets Lab Tytan, Monstertech ChairMounts
VirusAM Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 Perhaps the EA release could just work the same way the Eurofighter got introduced, Public Info permitting. Exactly what I think about R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 N/A Realsimulator FFSB MKII Ultra+F-16 grip+F/A-18 grip, VKB Stecs Max, VKB T-Rudder MKV, Razer Tartarus V2 Secrets Lab Tytan, Monstertech ChairMounts
VirusAM Posted April 13, 2020 Posted April 13, 2020 My comment wasn't aimed at you, but at the people you talked about ;) Speak for yourself! I'm very happy how ED released the Hornet and the Viper. Instead of having to wait untill the end of 2020 to be able to play them I can already enjoy them, while ED is making constant progress completing them. That's exactly how I like it. And in regards to HB, you apparently don't fly the Viggen, because this bird is being stuck in Early Access for many years with incredible slow progress... I am very happy as well R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 N/A Realsimulator FFSB MKII Ultra+F-16 grip+F/A-18 grip, VKB Stecs Max, VKB T-Rudder MKV, Razer Tartarus V2 Secrets Lab Tytan, Monstertech ChairMounts
QuiGon Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) If you were honestly "happy" on how the Viper was released... That's how you feel about it and that's why Early Access is optional. No one forces you to participate in EA. Others (like me) are quite happy with being able to test a module early on and support the devs during the final stages of development. If that's not something for you, just wait for the final release, but forcing all other users to do the same just because you don't like EA is pretty arrogant and selfish... there is probably nothing you wouldn't be "happy" about concerning ED. Even the staunchest of DCS fans could see that is not how to release a module, ED would never have cleared a 3rd party to release a module in that state. I would be unhappy with ED if there is no constant progress, but both the Viper and Hornet are being very actively worked on and have a deadline when they will be feature complete. That's all I can ask for. I'm not happy with other Early Access modules and their development (Viggen, Harrier and to name a ED module I guess the Yak-52 is also lacking behind although I don't own this module). Edited April 14, 2020 by QuiGon Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
kotor633 Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 I don’t understand this statement.... Just don’t buy in early access Do not know what is not understandable about it. But then I put it differently: I very much hope that TrueGrit does not jump on this 'EA train'. Just because a few people here can't wait to play with an EF2000 module. I hope TrueGrit does at least like HB with the F-14. And thanks for your advice I shouldn't buy an EA module ... ************************************** DCS World needs the Panavia Tornado! Really! **************************************
falcon_120 Posted April 14, 2020 Author Posted April 14, 2020 that is a pretty ignorant statement. I'm sorry, you don't get to decide what people can and cannot buy. There is no evidence that TrueGrit will let drop the ball here. Like Fri said, EA is a choice that needs to be made by them, not us. If ED scared you off EA, that's on you man. My "suggestion" would be to read up on what you're about to purchase and make an informed choice. But then again some always have to have something to hate on.This, exactly this. Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk
QuiGon Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 Do not know what is not understandable about it. But then I put it differently: I very much hope that TrueGrit does not jump on this 'EA train'. Just because a few people here can't wait to play with an EF2000 module. I hope TrueGrit does at least like HB with the F-14. And thanks for your advice I shouldn't buy an EA module ... So you want to prevent other users to get the chance to get to use the Eurofighter before it's feature complete, just because you don't like to use unfinished modules? So just because you want to wait for a finished module, others have to wait as well? I really don't understand this sentiment. How does it harm you if other users want to make use of the chance to use a module beforehand?! Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
Eaglewings Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) The problem I see here is that fellows that object to having an early access are defining early access by Ed's and a few third party developers early access standard. This does not have to be in all cases of early access. Today's F-16 is quite good enough to take to the battle front. Truegrit has stated that they want to ensure a good representation of the eurofighter as public documentation would allow so I am sure if Truegrit goes the early access route, they will not put out an empty shell of the typhoon. Speaking for myself here, I would very much like an early access of the eurofighter I can take to aa and AG battle confidently and there after receives progressive features and upgrade. The is the only module Truegrit is developing now and I am sure all resources would be focus on getting it where it should be. ED and other dev has lots in their hands hence the perceived delays in completing some of their modules but they are making effort on their parts. It is a matter of trusting Truegrit to deliver here. The way I see it. Love the Typhoon. Edited April 14, 2020 by Eaglewings Windows 10 Pro 64bit|Ryzen 5600 @3.8Ghz|EVGA RTX 3070 XC3 Ultra|Corair vengence 32G DDR4 @3200mhz|MSI B550|Thrustmaster Flightstick| Virpil CM3 Throttle| Thrustmaster TFRP Rudder Pedal /Samsung Odyssey Plus Headset
falcon_120 Posted April 14, 2020 Author Posted April 14, 2020 So you want to prevent other users to get the chance to get to use the Eurofighter before it's feature complete, just because you don't like to use unfinished modules? So just because you want to wait for a finished module, others have to wait as well? I really don't understand this sentiment. How does it harm you if other users want to make use of the chance to use a module beforehand?! As Quigon conveniently highlights, I think the EA is a good option for some of us and it should not prejudice any customers who decides to stay away. As you can see in my OT, i clearly stated that this is a controversial theme, and to avoid the discussion to drift away I tried to encourage the participation of those who like it, to see what is the best approach and foster that discussion. In any case of course any opinion are welcome since this is a forum. But please keep it civilized and do not belittle those of us who would love to fly a typhoon in VR in 1 year better than in 3, even if its without weapons.
ThorBrasil Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 I would rather see them take the HB way. Near completed and actually fun. :thumbup: |Motherboard|: Asus TUF Gaming X570-PLUS, |WaterCooler|: Corsair H115i Pro, |CPU|: AMD Ryzen 7 3800X, |RAM|: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3200MHz DDR4, |SSD|: Kingston A2000 500GB M.2 NVMe, |SSD|: Kingston 2.5´ 480GB UV400 SATA III, |SSHD|: Seagate Híbrido 2TB 7200RPM SATA III, |GPU|: MSI Gaming 980Ti, |Monitor|: LG UltraWide 34UM68, |Joystick 1|: Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog, |Joystick 2|: T.Flight Rudder Pedals, |Head Motion|: TrackIr 5.
kotor633 Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 So you want to prevent other users to get the chance to get to use the Eurofighter before it's feature complete, just because you don't like to use unfinished modules? So just because you want to wait for a finished module, others have to wait as well? I really don't understand this sentiment. How does it harm you if other users want to make use of the chance to use a module beforehand?! Oh don't come on this tour! What is the bubbling about "what I want". I can also say "... just because YOU absolutely want to play an EF2000 module as soon as possible, everyone else has to make do with such an unfinished module ..." On the one hand, I can say my opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. Or? Thanks. On the other hand, not only I think so about EA, there are also enough OTHERS who have a similar opinion. Yes, if possible then I would prefer an EF2000 module that is feature complete. And here and there bug still needs to be fixed. As a week / months to wait for the developer studio to finally add a small feature here and then a new feature. HB and Deka prove that it works! Yes, one or the other is still missing here. But if I compare it with the modules FA-18 or F-16 ... I also know that the topic EA is (almost) always a stimulating topic ... and it was not my intention to have endless discussions here again . Since it unfortunately does not bring anything ... That a few must feel pissed on the leg again ... ************************************** DCS World needs the Panavia Tornado! Really! **************************************
QuiGon Posted April 14, 2020 Posted April 14, 2020 (edited) It seems like you don't understand EA... Oh don't come on this tour! What is the bubbling about "what I want". I can also say "... just because YOU absolutely want to play an EF2000 module as soon as possible, everyone else has to make do with such an unfinished module ..." EA is optional! I don't know how often I'm supposed to repeat this until you understand it? If I get the EA I want, then you are not forced to participate in EA. You can still just wait for the actual release. You don't loose anything... But why do you want to deny other users their EA experience? What are you loosing? Are you just jealous that others play already while you don't? Edited April 14, 2020 by QuiGon Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!
Harlikwin Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 Please: Not this early access crap! If Deka can make a mostly complete JF17 on release, I'm sure Truegrit can too :smilewink: New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
ShadowFrost Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 If Deka can make a mostly complete JF17 on release, I'm sure Truegrit can too :smilewink: I know it's probably not always the case, but with a module that isn't released you have more incentive to work so I feel things get done sooner than the EA route. But +1 Deka did great, lets hope Truegrit do as well.
Schmidtfire Posted April 15, 2020 Posted April 15, 2020 But why do you want to deny other users their EA experience? What are you loosing? Are you just jealous that others play already while you don't? I don't mind Early Access if it is updated in a steady pace and with clear and transparent timeline for each item. If you own any DCS Early Access product you know this has not happened before. Two-three months into launch the updates grind to a very slow pace, while new product developments take priority. Other than gaining access to the Eurofighter early, there are only negatives associated with the EA route. Anyways, it is up to TrueGrit. But I personally think that the "mostly complete" strategy like F-14 or JF-17 is the way to go. The fun of study simming and truly learning an aircraft disappear when only 25% of the systems are implemented. Plus, there is a chance that you are already bored of flying it when it is eventually feature completed later down the line.
Recommended Posts