Cockpit in VR - too small?

[Hippo]

I don't know if it's just because I spend almost of all of my time in the F-18, but with the F-16 cockpit in VR, it seems like the scale's off. E.g. the flight stick looks tiny; but everything seems smaller than it should be.

 

Just me I suppose?

[Mosley]

Try playing with the ipd setting on the vr page, i remember setting it to a weird number and the a10 stick and throttle looked like 1/4 sized. like a child's toy.

 

From my understanding or lack thereof the ipd setting in game is independent of whatever your vr device is using, i think it had more to do with the way the game renders.

 

Give it a shot and let us know.

[Harlikwin]

Yeah IPD can be thought of as world scale. Its not your actual IPD. Just play with it till the stick seems right sized.

[Deano87]

Yeah have a fiddle with the IPD settings in the DCS Vr options till it feels about right. Bear in mind that the F-16 cockpit IS pretty damn small IRL. It feels like you could have a party in the F-18 by comparison and host a TED talk in the A10C.

[Dunx]

The F-16 is definitely not scaled correctly for VR.

 

I did enable the IPD option in DCS and set it to 55 which worked for the F-16.

 

Unfortunately this has also changed the scale of all my other aircraft, I now feel like a toddler in them :cry:

 

It would be cool to have an IPD setting per module.

[Knock-Knock]

Dunno, it looks pretty convincing to me. A very narrow pit. Never sat in one for reference, but the virtual one met my expectations.

 

[Deano87]

The F-16 is definitely not scaled correctly for VR.

 

I did enable the IPD option in DCS and set it to 55 which worked for the F-16.

 

Unfortunately this has also changed the scale of all my other aircraft, I now feel like a toddler in them :cry:

 

It would be cool to have an IPD setting per module.

 

It is scaled correctly, its just that F-16 cockpit is tiny. I have sat in an F-16 multiple times, those MFD screens are only 4x4 inch. It should feel like you're wearing it and your shoulders are almost brushing the canopy rails.

 

The Hornet and A-10C screens are 5x5 inch for reference, and should feel palatial in comparison.

 

I think the 3D model of the stick is perhaps a touch small, which throws everything else off when you use that as your reference.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Deano87

[Dunx]

OK, I went back to school. I cut some card using the dimensions from the document linked below (142.8mm² bezel, 106.7mm² CRT). I have assumed that the newer colour version of the MFD will have the same dimensions.

 

https://www.astronautics.com/pdf/product_brochures/F-16_4-Inch_MFD.pdf

 

I then scaled the VR cockpit using the IPD option until the MFD and card matched (about 59 IPD). The MFDs, leg wells, panels, switches and the stick now feel right. My shoulders do indeed touch the sides.

 

The scale of my other aircraft now feels exaggerated, however, I cut another 105.0mm² card for the F/A-18C DDI CRT (approximate dimensions according to Hornet Pits photos). The card is very close to the VR DDI, even closer at IPD 60.

 

I now believe that I’ve been flying tiny birds all along. Not only that, I can now read the text on most aircraft panels!

 

Also… I don’t know if the Thrustmaster A-10C and F/A-18C grips are to scale, but they also match their VR counterparts at IPD 60.

[Deano87]

OK, I went back to school. I cut some card using the dimensions from the document linked below (142.8mm² bezel, 106.7mm² CRT). I have assumed that the newer colour version of the MFD will have the same dimensions.

 

https://www.astronautics.com/pdf/product_brochures/F-16_4-Inch_MFD.pdf

 

I then scaled the VR cockpit using the IPD option until the MFD and card matched (about 59 IPD). The MFDs, leg wells, panels, switches and the stick now feel right. My shoulders do indeed touch the sides.

 

The scale of my other aircraft now feels exaggerated, however, I cut another 105.0mm² card for the F/A-18C DDI CRT (approximate dimensions according to Hornet Pits photos). The card is very close to the VR DDI, even closer at IPD 60.

 

I now believe that I’ve been flying tiny birds all along. Not only that, I can now read the text on most aircraft panels!

 

Also… I don’t know if the Thrustmaster A-10C and F/A-18C grips are to scale, but they also match their VR counterparts at IPD 60.

 

Great to hear! That IPD setting (really it should be called "World Scale") is completely individual to you, it depends on your real IPD, and the VR goggles you are using and how they are set up. So what works for you might not produce the same results for other ppl. I'm glad you've found something that works good for you though!

 

I run a DCS IPD setting of 58mm, my real IPD is 62.5mm and I fly with a Rift-S. Everything looks about right, and you're right, readability is a lot better.

[Hippo]

OK, I went back to school. I cut some card using the dimensions from the document linked below (142.8mm² bezel, 106.7mm² CRT). I have assumed that the newer colour version of the MFD will have the same dimensions.

 

https://www.astronautics.com/pdf/product_brochures/F-16_4-Inch_MFD.pdf

 

I then scaled the VR cockpit using the IPD option until the MFD and card matched (about 59 IPD). The MFDs, leg wells, panels, switches and the stick now feel right. My shoulders do indeed touch the sides.

 

The scale of my other aircraft now feels exaggerated, however, I cut another 105.0mm² card for the F/A-18C DDI CRT (approximate dimensions according to Hornet Pits photos). The card is very close to the VR DDI, even closer at IPD 60.

 

I now believe that I’ve been flying tiny birds all along. Not only that, I can now read the text on most aircraft panels!

 

Also… I don’t know if the Thrustmaster A-10C and F/A-18C grips are to scale, but they also match their VR counterparts at IPD 60.

 

Thanks, great post. I've avoided playing around with the IPD setting:

 

For one thing, I'm perfectly happy with the F-18 and haven't had to change anything for that.

 

If a setting is correct for one aircraft, shouldn't it be the same for all of them?

 

I'm using a Rift-S, the Oculus software knows my IPD, so I don't see why I should have to dial in an IPD in game. Even if I do, shouldn't it be possible for ED to say exactly what the setting should be for a specific HMD?

 

I've not found (doesn't mean one isn't out there) a satisfactory explanation for what the IPD setting in ED actually does - I seem to remember reading somewhere that it has nothing to do with IPD and does something entirely different. I shall be going through the forums again I think.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Hippo

[Hippo]

It is scaled correctly, its just that F-16 cockpit is tiny. I have sat in an F-16 multiple times, those MFD screens are only 4x4 inch. It should feel like you're wearing it and your shoulders are almost brushing the canopy rails.

 

The Hornet and A-10C screens are 5x5 inch for reference, and should feel palatial in comparison.

 

I think the 3D model of the stick is perhaps a touch small, which throws everything else off when you use that as your reference.

 

A lot of what you say seems right, and yet...

 

...everything does "feel" teeny-tiny: switches, the buttons on the ICP. And you have to ask, if the stick seems too small, why should it? I own a Cougar, and it seems much smaller than that.

 

The ka-50 and a-10 feel enormous in comparison. The f-18 feels just right.

[Enduro14]

Well every pit you have to setup, IPD aka world scale in Dcs World. everyones eyes are different so it all needs adjusting. i go off pilot bodies or in pit hotas

[Hippo]

Well every pit you have to setup, IPD aka world scale in Dcs World. everyones eyes are different so it all needs adjusting. i go off pilot bodies or in pit hotas

 

Well, according to the latest DCS manual, p51:

 

Force IPD Distance. Allows the user to manually set the interpupillary distance.

Has there ever been a detailed explanation from ED on what this setting actually does, and how it interacts with, e.g., the Oculus IPD setting? (And why "IPD distance", when the D already stands for distance? Doesn't inspire much confidence).

 

And I get that everyone's eyes are different, but they don't change when moving from cockpit to cockpit.

 

This topic is the sort of thing that would make for a really interesting technical article: explaining the maths, how it's all been implemented in DCS, and how to ensure everything is set up properly for a particular HMD. It's this sort of communication that I would really like to see from ED.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Hippo

[Deano87]

Thanks, great post. I've avoided playing around with the IPD setting:

 

For one thing, I'm perfectly happy with the F-18 and haven't had to change anything for that.

 

If a setting is correct for one aircraft, shouldn't it be the same for all of them?

 

I'm using a Rift-S, the Oculus software knows my IPD, so I don't see why I should have to dial in an IPD in game. Even if I do, shouldn't it be possible for ED to say exactly what the setting should be for a specific HMD?

 

I've not found (doesn't mean one isn't out there) a satisfactory explanation for what the IPD setting in ED actually does - I seem to remember reading somewhere that it has nothing to do with IPD and does something entirely different. I shall be going through the forums again I think.

 

Yes one IPD setting should work for all aircraft, as they are all the same scale in engine. 50mm in one cockpit is 50mm in another.

 

The reason the Oculus IPD setting might not give you the perfect sensation of scale out of the box is because all the Oculus Rift-S IPD adjustment is done in software and the physical lenses are fixed, It matters how your physical IPD interacts with the theoretical ideal IPD for the fixed lenses inside the headset. Also the way your eyes communicate with your brain and help determine the scale of an object is complex and cannot simply be boiled down to an IPD measurement. Its all of these stacking complexities that mean having an adjustable world scale - which is what essentially the DCS IPD setting is - Is required so people can fine tune to get something that feels right. World scale or Engine IPD is found in most serious VR software, all the other sims I play, both flight and racing feature the same thing, under one name or another.

 

Regarding what the DCS IPD does.. It simply moves the two "Cameras" (eyes) in the DCS world that produce your stereoscopic imagery further apart of closer together. Thus altering the apparent scale of the entire DCS world around you, and your resultant perception of depth.

 

But what it doesn't do is effect your the way those "cameras" move around the cockpit. The movement of those cameras is dictated by your headset positional tracking which is independent of IPD. So if you move your head 40mm to the left it will always move 40mm in DCS, regardless of the IPD setting. This can lead to some weird sensations where the parallax effect is correct (the amount of movement of the panel from head movement is correct) but the IPD is wrong, this is a situation thats very confusing for the brain, as it uses both parallax and stereopsis to figure out how big and far away an object is. With the variability in HMD lenses, peoples eyes, and the way their brains work you can see the need for an adjustment to fine tune things.

[Snake122]

It is scaled correctly, its just that F-16 cockpit is tiny. I have sat in an F-16 multiple times, those MFD screens are only 4x4 inch. It should feel like you're wearing it and your shoulders are almost brushing the canopy rails.

 

The Hornet and A-10C screens are 5x5 inch for reference, and should feel palatial in comparison.

 

I think the 3D model of the stick is perhaps a touch small, which throws everything else off when you use that as your reference.

 

I agree, while it's been a long time since I sat in one and the only for a few minutes at a time and maybe 30 minutes total in the simulator, they are small. Maybe not A-4 small and not as roomy as the F-15 is supposed to be, but it's a jet you strap on. As remember there is the 30 degree incline that takes you that much further from the instrument panel than other planes.

 

Interesting tip on the IPD, I always avoided playing with it thinking I'd get double vision or less stereoscopic effect. I'll have to play with it now!

[lobo]

 

Interesting tip on the IPD, I always avoided playing with it thinking I'd get double vision or less stereoscopic effect. I'll have to play with it now!

 

What does "Force IPD" do?

Nutshell: It makes you bigger, or smaller, as an entity. Which makes the world feel bigger or smaller as a result. It simulates the apparent change in size of the entire world based on an estimate of the distance between your eyes. Larger IPD = bigger person and smaller cockpit and world. Smaller IPD = smaller person and thus the cockpit and world get larger.

 

Read the full informative post here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=254593

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

(And why "IPD distance", when the D already stands for distance? Doesn't inspire much confidence).

I agree it triggers my OCD as well, but it happens in other contexts just the same: "HIV virus" for example, and there are many others, so it's just a "human thing".

 

On-topic: I never felt the need to adjust IPD to anything other than my real-life IPD (which is 66.0). ED and the 3rd parties spend a lot of time developing the cockpit models, and I'm sure many of the developers use VR as well, so I'd think it would stand out in development phase if the scale is wrong.

I never sat in the cockpit of a real F-16, but I have always been aware it is tiny IRL. Ah well, it comes down to personal preference, and we're lucky enough to be able to adjust the scale if we feel like to, unlike the pilots who fly the thing IRL :P

[Hippo]

What does "Force IPD" do?

Nutshell: It makes you bigger, or smaller, as an entity. Which makes the world feel bigger or smaller as a result. It simulates the apparent change in size of the entire world based on an estimate of the distance between your eyes. Larger IPD = bigger person and smaller cockpit and world. Smaller IPD = smaller person and thus the cockpit and world get larger.

 

Read the full informative post here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=254593

 

Thanks for posting that. I haven't gone over all the replies, but my question would be: fine, you rescale the cockpit, but aren't you rescaling everything in the world also? Does this mean that (say) buildings, trees and cars will be a different size? So you'll have differently sized world objects for each aircraft if you adjust IPD per aircraft - that can't be right.

 

I've also always felt, that after ejecting, my virtual me's legs and feet are way too small, and I'm hardly a giant.

 

From the post:

 

Why do i need it?

Because not all the cockpits appear scaled the same way. This might be a number of reasons, I dont think it's pure scaling. Let's get over "why" this is so, it just is. In a perfect world, you could set one IPD that makes everything look the right size and it would mean all modules appear perfect, but you can't, so get over it quickly and your world will be easier to live in until this changes. The same IPD will make you feel either too small or too large in different modules. So you NEED IPD settings to fix that.

This is what is commonly referred to as a cop out. Although I am sympathetic.

[Deano87]

Thanks for posting that. I haven't gone over all the replies, but my question would be: fine, you rescale the cockpit, but aren't you rescaling everything in the world also? Does this mean that (say) buildings, trees and cars will be a different size? So you'll have differently sized world objects for each aircraft if you adjust IPD per aircraft - that can't be right.

 

Read my reply a few posts above, yes you are changing the apparent scale of the whole world, not just the cockpit.

[Hippo]

Read my reply a few posts above, yes you are changing the apparent scale of the whole world, not just the cockpit.

 

Thanks. I had misunderstood - I see now that the change is only going to be noticeable for very close up objects.

 

I've tried the setting now. On first impressions, I do think a setting around 55 - 60 seems better for the F-16.

 

There's another "issue" with the F-16, in that if you're sitting in a normal chair (as I am) as soon as you catch sight of the seat it feels wrong (as it should). Looks like I need to get a recliner.

[Deano87]

Thanks. I had misunderstood - I see now that the change is only going to be noticeable for very close up objects.

 

I've tried the setting now. On first impressions, I do think a setting around 55 - 60 seems better for the F-16.

 

There's another "issue" with the F-16, in that if you're sitting in a normal chair (as I am) as soon as you catch sight of the seat it feels wrong (as it should). Looks like I need to get a recliner.

 

Yeah getting a good reclined seating position and more importantly getting the rudder pedals at about the same height as your butt makes a big difference.

[Draco]

It looks right to me in VR with a CV-1. F-16 cockpits are really small. I got to spend some time in one on the ground recently. I'm a smaller guy at 5'8" and it was a pretty cozy fit. I was uncomfortable with how tight and small everything was. I was also surprised at how small the MFD's are and how far away from the pilots face they are.

[Fri13]

ED should do one thing, a global good VR world and pilot scale setting.

 

It would mean that ED would create a VR virtual room, where is a virtual chair, that is given specific size, be it like 40 cm wide and 40 cm from front edge to chair rear.

 

User would then adjust their seated height so that they feel that their chair match the virtual chair height, so no matter what when sitting in the aircraft, they will sit physically on the seat at correct height. And then they need to use the seat adjustment settings to set their vision height match the HUD/Gunsight etc.

 

Then users would take a ruler and measure that 40 cm width, and place it under their knees so that they can scale the world so that when they physically touch the ruler, they will see the virtual chair edges match it.

 

In that chair everyone would set the scale until virtual chair edges and real 40 cm stick will match. And that would guarantee that their world scale is correct between modules.

 

And then the third adjustment is to set the virtual chair to match the real chair back, so when they lean backward their backs touches real chair and it looks like it is right on the virtual chair.

 

Now there are three values set match between virtual and real world:

 

1) Seated height to eyes.

2) World scale

3) Seat distance to back.

 

And then rest is done in the virtual aircraft, seat height adjustments etc. And those could be stored for the aircraft itself.

[USA_Recon]

MFD's from ED are really poorly done.

 

There are a couple of mods I highly recommend - visibility and readability. Makes a big difference in VR and also desktop.

 

It's definitely a pet peave of mine that ED would be ok with how this currently is, it's not very high quality workmanship.

[Bog9y]

Thank you whoever started this thread!!! I had my IPD set to 62 , thinking it was to do with your pupil distance and the VR headset. I had no idea it adjusts the scale!

 

I adjusted mine to 58 and the Viper pit is so much better!!! The MFDs are much easier to read now.

 

THANKS!!