Anyone attacked the Kutz yet?

[Xxx]

I am trying an anti ship mission against a surface group.

 

 

My side, two FA18-C Lot 20 Hornets, armed with 2 Harpoon and 2 AGM65F.

 

 

Mission planner has final waypoint 50 nm from the group.

 

 

Target group consists of, Kuznetzov, Pyotr Velikiy, Rezky and a Molniya. No air defence, "just" the groups self defences.

 

 

Nothing I do can get the Harpoons past the defensive armaments of the group. Sea skimming Harpoons get blasted out of the sky! Attempting to close at 550 knots at 50 feet, to deliver the AGM65's is suicide!

 

 

With no sea/ground radar its not easy.

 

 

Anyone had any success against ships of this calibre with our Hornet...or anything? Do we have any stand off missile that can do the job?

 

 

Perhaps a couple of Los Angeles class subs may work better? LOL!

 

 

Cheers

[oldcrusty]

No, no magic weapon. I haven't tried it in recent builds but couple of months ago did manage to sink Moskva and one or 2 other ones. It took a horrendous amount of Harpoons and HARMs.

Saturation from all directions...

[VFA41_Lion]

you need at least 8 Hornets with 4x harpoons each. And then some F-14s with TALDs because no Russian ships have individual damage modeling for radars.

 

And even then you'll probably only sink two.

[Harker]

You'll need much more than that. 40 Harpoons or more just to get you started. To finish the job, you'll likely need to be supported either by ships of comparable firepower or a small fleet of smaller vessels. Or get another few flights up in the air. That's assuming you're not going for a suicide mission.

 

A Kirov class (such as Pyotr) is extremely difficult to get to in and of itself. That thing is a floating fortress. You'd need something like 20 Harpoons to have a chance of just a few hitting it.

 

The Kuznetsov is classified as a heavy cruiser carrier. It has its own share of formidable weaponry. It's far better armed than a Nimitz class carrier. Dozens of medium range SAMs, 8 dual 30mm CWIS, a number of single 30mm AAA guns and even heavy anti-ship missiles. You'll fare better than with the Kirov, since your Harpoons will be able to get closer before it starts intercepting them, so more will probably get past.

 

The Krivak class (Rezky) has its own medium range SAMs and AAA. Only the Tarantul corvette (Molniya) lacks any serious air defenses.

 

Like Gripes says, you need to go for a saturation attack, ideally from multiple directions (the latter part is unlikely in a IRL scenario, since carrier fleets and their aircraft establish large control zones that you'll be unable to penetrate from multiple points, unless you bring a significantly larger force).

 

PS. I don't get why the Russian ships have individual names instead of class names, like the US ones.

[Xxx]

You'll need much more than that. 40 Harpoons or more just to get you started. To finish the job, you'll likely need to be supported either by ships of comparable firepower or a small fleet of smaller vessels. Or get another few flights up in the air. That's assuming you're not going for a suicide mission.

 

A Kirov class (such as Pyotr) is extremely difficult to get to in and of itself. That thing is a floating fortress. You'd need something like 20 Harpoons to have a chance of just a few hitting it.

 

The Kuznetsov is classified as a heavy cruiser carrier. It has its own share of formidable weaponry. It's far better armed than a Nimitz class carrier. Dozens of medium range SAMs, 8 dual 30mm CWIS, a number of single 30mm AAA guns and even heavy anti-ship missiles. You'll fare better than with the Kirov, since your Harpoons will be able to get closer before it starts intercepting them, so more will probably get past.

 

The Krivak class (Rezky) has its own medium range SAMs and AAA. Only the Tarantul corvette (Molniya) lacks any serious air defenses.

 

Like Gripes says, you need to go for a saturation attack, ideally from multiple directions (the latter part is unlikely in a IRL scenario, since carrier fleets and their aircraft establish large control zones that you'll be unable to penetrate from multiple points, unless you bring a significantly larger force).

 

PS. I don't get why the Russian ships have individual names instead of class names, like the US ones.

 

That's really interesting, thanks. And thanks to the other chaps for the advice.

 

I put the ship's together as a test group. The Kutznetzov, alone would be difficult. Even without any fighter cover. I imagine it would be pure hell to attempt an attack with SU33's aloft! With destroyer protection it's impossible unless, as people have said, you mounted a massive package. Even then it would be carnage! My brave attack run at 30' and 500 knots looked impressive, for 20 seconds before those SAM's put me in Davy Jones' locker!

 

I was re learning the Viggen, to try those Rb15's, just in case they were more resistant to the anti missile defense? However I think I am wasting my time.

 

Things have moved on since the Falklands. Recall how those Exocets annihilated the task force ships? Granted the Sheffield was not at action stations, but it's doubtful if even Broadswords Sea Wolf system could have taken out the Exocet? The Sheffield's Sea Cat and sailors with GPMG's were no match. No CIWS back then on Destroyers.

 

So there's the next project for ED! Falklands map with 1982 ships, aircraft and weapons. At least when recreating history we know we have a chance to actually prosecute attacks. The modern fleet defence is so good, no wonder they are moving towards hypersonic missiles and DEW?

 

Cheers.

[PoorOldSpike]

Speaking of the Kutz, it transited the English Channel in 2016 en route to the Mediterranean, what cheek!

 

 

 

Just to digress, I play naval wargames and find that the only sure-fire way to sink or cripple a ship or carrier is to do an insanely massive "saturation" attack with a "locust swarm" of antiship missiles to completely overwhelm its defences, and I suppose that's true in DCS too?

[panton41]

In Command Modern Operations the surefire way for a Ticonderoga-Class VLS cruiser to sink a Kirov is to use the Standard Missiles as Surface-to-surface until the Kirov empties its magazines, then fire all of your Harpoons. It takes about 80 missiles, both surface-to-surface and surface-to-air defending against the Kirov's missiles.

 

Fire Harpoons first and they're shot down like target practice. The simple fact boils down to the VLS Tiggy holds more missiles in total than a Kirov.

 

Seriously, though, if you want "big picture" operation ideas look at Command Modern Combat, it is to higher level planning what DCS is to individual units. (Both companies have served as military contractors for training software.)

[panton41]

The modern fleet defence is so good, no wonder they are moving towards hypersonic missiles and DEW?

 

Cheers.

 

Modern fleet defense is totally untested and no one knows how effective it really is.

 

For that matter, no one knows how effective the antishipping cruise missile is against defending targets. They have never once been fired against target that actively tried to defend itself and the closest they have come, in the Flaklands, shows countermeasures like chaff and ECM are extremely effective.

 

The only warships that have been hit were extremely small and there is no knowledge of how well a large warship could take damage other than the vague knowledge that the US Navy fired an ungodly amount of weapons at the USS America and didn't manage to sink her. (The exact results are classified, but the video of a controlled scuttling of a visibly heavily damaged ship are open record and can be found on YouTube.) During the Tanker Wars of the 1980s, large civilian bulk crude carriers could take quite a few hits from Harpoons and Exocets and not sink. The USS Stark was hit by two Exocets in 1987, without attempting to defend, and was taken out of action.

 

Read Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat by CAPT Wayne Hughes to get a better understanding, but we're at the "dawn of the 20th century and haven't had a real naval war in decades" point in naval combat where the results of the battles of World War I surprised everyone. (Hint, not in a good way, but in an "oh shit, we were totally wrong" way.)

Edited June 14, 2020 by panton41

[PoorOldSpike]

Yeah guys, and when we throw jamming and counter-jamming etc into the playpen there's no knowing how a real-world big modern-day naval engagement would go.

Personally, speaking as a soul-less unrepentant wargamer, I'd probably simply press the nuclear button to take out an enemy task force on the high seas (ie far from shore) without hesitation.

Okay, it might give a few fish headaches but hey that's war..:)

[panton41]

Take the AEGIS Cruiser for example:

 

The Standard Missile can pretty reliably shoot down... a drone behaving how testers think an antishipping cruise missile might act. What if they don't?

 

CWIS work pretty well, again against drones. Again, drones.

 

The shipboard systems can engage hundreds of targets within minutes until the magazines deplete... in a computer simulation.

 

The radar works amazingly well, under near perfect conditions against a small number of target (mostly civilian overflight) and even then the Iran Air Flight 665 incident happened. Let's not get into hundreds of "Vampires" cluttered against dozens more civilian and friendly air traffic.

 

None have been tests in real life situations, even under otherwise test conditions. (Like hundreds of real missiles with no warhead, for example.)

 

I'd call it a crap shoot, but the dice have vastly better odds.

 

FWIW, Naval planners know this. The book I mentioned is a textbook at the US Naval Academy (among others) and is considered a basic primer on modern naval warfare.

[Xxx]

So attacking defended ships in the Hornet isn't really an option?

 

Perhaps ED could increase our chances, say in bad weather, by reducing the ship's radar/defence capability? The Rb 15 has a terminal altitude of just five feet. In choppy seas, that would be a challenge for any system. At least it would give us s chance to "play". If we knew in bad weather we stood a chance?

 

So I am thinking the only way I'm going to sink anything is by reducing the Kutznetzov's escort to a couple of Corvettes. Using a Ticonderoga to deplete it's missile magazines and then go in with my flight of Hornets/Viggen? Or just make them "hold fire" or "return fire' only in the mission planner?

 

Hope ED does a Falklands map, I'd be interested in that one!

 

Cheers.

[Swift.]

Razbam are already doing a Falklands map

[Xxx]

Razbam are already doing a Falklands map

 

Let's hope for the period aircraft and ships! Should make for some interesting historical recreations. But we need a Vulcan and Victor Tankers to re do Black Buck....if the map extends to Ascention Island?

 

Cheers.

[VFA41_Lion]

So attacking defended ships in the Hornet isn't really an option?

 

Perhaps ED could increase our chances, say in bad weather, by reducing the ship's radar/defence capability? The Rb 15 has a terminal altitude of just five feet. In choppy seas, that would be a challenge for any system. At least it would give us s chance to "play". If we knew in bad weather we stood a chance?

 

So I am thinking the only way I'm going to sink anything is by reducing the Kutznetzov's escort to a couple of Corvettes. Using a Ticonderoga to deplete it's missile magazines and then go in with my flight of Hornets/Viggen? Or just make them "hold fire" or "return fire' only in the mission planner?

 

Hope ED does a Falklands map, I'd be interested in that one!

 

Cheers.

 

Its an option if you take up the squadron to attack a group of vessels. Sorry, but thats how it is in modern naval warfare.

[PoorOldSpike]

So attacking defended ships in the Hornet isn't really an option..

 

It depends what the target ship is, and what missiles you're clobbering it with.

For example it takes about 20 Maverick F hits to sink this Rezky frigate.

I created this mission in the editor, just my Hornet using MavF's against the Rezky and it's an interesting little exercise.

The ship begins locking me up with its radar (ominous beeps) at around 7 miles and lets a SAM fly shortly after (terrifying rapid beeps).

So because the Mav's lockon range is also about 7 miles I have to launch a single Mav and then immediately U-turn to get the hell out, popping chaff and flares like crazy, then come back for a second Mav attack and keep repeating the procedure.

 

I'd dearly LURV to launch several Mavs in quick succession whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh at 1 second intervals before turning tail, but we can't do that because after every launch the Mav goes back to boresight, meaning we have to manoeuvre the locking triangle over the bloody ship and lock it up all over again which takes several seconds per missile, so to fire 4 Mavs in succession would take around 20 seconds in the face of his incoming SAMS which would be suicide.

 

Interestingly the Rezky doesn't fire at the incoming Mavs with his SAM's or CIWS or anything else, presumably Mavs are too small to show up on his radar?

BTW one Mav only inflicts a few percent damage on him, so it's a long job to actually sink him because you need 20 hits or more, although if you're lucky you'll have knocked out his radars and made him catch fire before that.

 

PS- and before anybody asks why I don't use long-range Harpoons, that's too easy and there's no fun in it, whereas with Mav's you have to get to within about 7 miles of him to launch, braving his SAM's..:)

 

 

 

 

Eye candy- like I said, the Rezky can't/won't engage Mavs, but it will engage my Hornet with SAMS like here-

Edited June 14, 2020 by PoorOldSpike

[speed-of-heat]

Let's hope for the period aircraft and ships! Should make for some interesting historical recreations. But we need a Vulcan and Victor Tankers to re do Black Buck....if the map extends to Ascention Island?

 

Cheers.

 

Errr I don’t think it’s going to be 3000nm ... that would be like the biggest map ever...

[Seaeagle]

So attacking defended ships in the Hornet isn't really an option?

 

Depends on the type/number of ships and how many Hornets you employ. One or two frigates sure - a complete group of the most heavily armed vessels on the planet.....not a chance.

 

Perhaps ED could increase our chances, say in bad weather, by reducing the ship's radar/defence capability?

 

They could also seriously decrease your chances by implementing features that warships currently completely lack in the sim - i.e. a vast array of countermeasure systems and powerful ECM suites that RL warships have :) .

 

So I am thinking the only way I'm going to sink anything is by reducing the Kutznetzov's escort to a couple of Corvettes. Using a Ticonderoga to deplete it's missile magazines and then go in with my flight of Hornets/Viggen? Or just make them "hold fire" or "return fire' only in the mission planner?

 

There is no way the Kuz would be travelling anywhere with just a couple of small missile ships, so if realism isn't an issue you might as well just go against the Kuznetsov on its own .....and even then you would have your work cut out for you :) . The Kuz has four Kinzhal systems with a total of 192 missiles, eight Kortik systems each with a magazine of 32 missiles(256 in total) + dual 30 mm gatling cannons and 6 AK-630 mounts each with 2000 round magazines.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Seaeagle

[Harker]

I'd dearly LURV to launch several Mavs in quick succession whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh at 1 second intervals before turning tail, but we can't do that because after every launch the Mav goes back to boresight, meaning we have to manoeuvre the locking triangle over the bloody ship and lock it up all over again which takes several seconds per missile, so to fire 4 Mavs in succession would take around 20 seconds in the face of his incoming SAMS which would be suicide.

If you set up an AG designation on top of the ship, either with the AG radar or the TPOD, then your Mavericks will automatically slave to it and since it's a ship in the middle of water, they'll immediately lock onto it. As soon as you're in range, you can fire all four in a few seconds and get out before you're fired upon.

[sora_061]

Man I love people trying to take out CSG solo. It's not even possible in dreams if they are in alert state. Also don't forget Fleet defense fighters. No way a country would let a Carrier lose.

If DCS really simulated all the system of Ships that are missing currently, you wouldn't even try it with only Air attacks. You need your own CSG helping you. It will become Battle of Attrition. Still a carrier wouldn't go down before you, since you are in the air (it's kinda suicide mission).

[panton41]

Honestly, if a NATO navy wanted to sink the Kunz they'd use submarines.

 

In real life it's not going to be a concern for the foreseeable future (Last I heard its in really bad shape and might never cruise again.) But the Chinese have one of the Kunz's sister ships fully operational, and a second indigenously designed carrier that was strongly based on the Kunz's and two more of the latter being built.

[sora_061]

Honestly, if a NATO navy wanted to sink the Kunz they'd use submarines.

 

In real life it's not going to be a concern for the foreseeable future (Last I heard its in really bad shape and might never cruise again.) But the Chinese have one of the Kunz's sister ships fully operational, and a second indigenously designed carrier that was strongly based on the Kunz's and two more of the latter being built.

Deception is the only weapon effective in warfare. Only carrying out submarine attack is not an option, it'll prove ineffective if they use counter defensive tactic against submarines, it'll eventually expose the submarines. I maybe wrong but Battle of Attrition is the only option against a CSG.

 

Sent from my Redmi K20 Pro using Tapatalk

[Xxx]

Hey guys its possible.

 

 

2 fights of AI Viggens with Rb15. One flight (2 ship) attacks from north, the second flight from the west (head on to the fleet)

 

 

My Hornet flight is timed to arrive just as the Rb15's have hit!

 

 

The fleet was set to "return fire".

 

 

The Rb15 seems superior to the Harpoon....But its AI launched?

 

 

Anyway they all sink with this method, provided you time the strike for everyone to synchronise the attack.

 

 

Cheers.

 

 

Oh, that's with o fighter screen. I bet with Su33 up, the story would be different?

[PoorOldSpike]

The only possible future real-world big naval task force operation I can think of is if China decides to invade Taiwan. Do you think America will try to help Taiwan resist it?

Are there any other possible big naval ops around the world that DCS members can foresee?

[QuiGon]

Have you guys tried attacking with the RB-04E? In my experience the ship defense systems have a hard time intercepting them and you can take out even the most powerfull ships with just a few of these missiles, although that seems to be more of a bug than a realistic feature.

[Dudikoff]

Modern fleet defense is totally untested and no one knows how effective it really is.

 

For that matter, no one knows how effective the antishipping cruise missile is against defending targets. They have never once been fired against target that actively tried to defend itself and the closest they have come, in the Flaklands, shows countermeasures like chaff and ECM are extremely effective.

 

This kind of information is not in public domain, but I get the impression these kinds of tests are done routinely. Sometimes special drones are made to simulate the anti-ship missiles and these can then be used in tests where manned ships would try to shoot them down and sometimes decommissioned ships are modified to be remotely operated and then inert or even actual anti-ship missiles are fired against them to test the CIWS systems, decoys, missiles and such.

 

The only issue is how accurately you can actually simulate a real anti-ship missile with a drone, but e.g. US Navy did purchase some SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles and test fired them in such tests in the 90s.

 

Here are some related articles:

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33337/navy-needed-targets-to-mimic-supersonic-anti-ship-missiles-so-they-bought-real-ones-from-russia

 

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-103.php

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dudikoff