What is the point of Anti Radiation and Anti ship missiles?

[Focha]

Hi,

 

What is the point of having all those weapons, if you have a certain composition of ships or SAMs and it is impossible to kill whatever...

 

Units are pretty invincible right now. They just send a volley of SAMs and all the weapons are destroyed.

 

Mavericks, JSOW, LDs, HARMs, Harpoon, all defeated with really high kill rates.

 

So, what is the point then of having all these weapons if nothing happens to enemy defenses?

 

Not even a radar turned off...

 

Can you please help me understand how to employ these weapons?

 

Thank you.

[Yoshua]

Even in real life to kill a SAM you have to over welm it. You can't just fly in alone expect a high kill ratio. It also depends on how you use some weapons like HARMS or JSOW's and JDAM's.

 

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[GGTharos]

Can you please help me understand how to employ these weapons?

 

Bring friends. No single fighter will accomplish much against an awake defense complex.

[Mikeck]

Because DCS is missing EW. No aircraft is going in on a SEAD mission without any type of EW system...whether an EA-18, EA-68 or at least a pod. So you are attacking SAM radars without dominishing their capability at all. Even so, a HARM can take out an SA2, SA3, SA6, SA8 pretty easily.

 

The US, Israel and NATO have all become quite proficient in suppressing SAM systems and routinely do so in Syria. They aren’t magic shoot-down machines....but they do it with systems that DCS simply doesn’t model. Not to mention, a harm fired at a ship in reality takes out its radar IF it hits. In DCs, individual systems like this aren’t modeled

[Northstar98]

In DCS ARMs don't even track on the actual emitter, they just home in on the geometric centroid like everything else.

[Exorcet]

The S in SEAD is suppression. Firing missiles to keep SAM's from shooting your planes for a couple of minutes can be as good as killing them. Destruction isn't always necessary.

[Lanzfeld113]

The S in SEAD is suppression. Firing missiles to keep SAM's from shooting your planes for a couple of minutes can be as good as killing them. Destruction isn't always necessary.

 

 

Excellent point sir. I never really thought about it that way

[Falby]

"Magnum" is spoken over the radio to announce the launch of an AGM-88.[5] During the Gulf War, if an aircraft was illuminated by enemy radar a bogus "Magnum" call on the radio was often enough to convince the operators to power down.[6] This technique would also be employed in Serbia during air operations in 1999.

 

From Wiki so don't know how accurate it is!

[QuiGon]

Because DCS is missing EW. No aircraft is going in on a SEAD mission without any type of EW system...whether an EA-18, EA-68 or at least a pod. So you are attacking SAM radars without dominishing their capability at all. Even so, a HARM can take out an SA2, SA3, SA6, SA8 pretty easily.

DCS does simulate EW. It's just not implemented for the Hornet yet, but it is implemented for other jets.

[Yoshua]

DCS does simulate EW. It's just not implemented for the Hornet yet, but it is implemented for other jets.

EW is not really simulated that well. And I doubt they can get much info on it.

 

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[QuiGon]

EW is not really simulated that well. And I doubt they can get much info on it.

 

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I know its not simulated in depth, but it is simulated and does impact enemy SAM effectivity. It's just not available for the Hornet yet.

[Yoshua]

I know its not simulated in depth, but it is simulated and does impact enemy SAM effectivity. It's just not available for the Hornet yet.

I haven't really noticed it in any jet. Either way it's extremely basic.

 

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[QuiGon]

I haven't really noticed it in any jet. Either way it's extremely basic.

 

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Yes, ECM is basic, but it works quite well, as it reduced the range that the SAMs will engage you.

ECM is currently available on the F-15C, Su-27, MiG-29?, Su-25, A-10, MiG-21bis, M2000, JF-17, AJS-37, F-14.

Edited June 29, 2020 by QuiGon

[schurem]

But what does it do? Shorten lock on range by a certain percentage?

[QuiGon]

But what does it do? Shorten lock on range by a certain percentage?

Yes, that's pretty much it.

[Harker]

EW is not really simulated that well. And I doubt they can get much info on it.

 

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There's tons of available public info for older ECM systems. Entire university level books have been written on the subject. That alone would be enough to massively improve DCS's ECM implementation. Now, all we have is noise jamming.

 

On the other hand, if they implement something like range gate pull-off, they're going to have to implement range gate functionality first, which does not exist in DCS, AFAIK. It's kind of evident by how easy it is to notch radars and active missiles, even if the ground clutter is miles behind you.

[Riojano]

Hi,

 

What is the point of having all those weapons, if you have a certain composition of ships or SAMs and it is impossible to kill whatever...

 

Units are pretty invincible right now. They just send a volley of SAMs and all the weapons are destroyed.

 

Mavericks, JSOW, LDs, HARMs, Harpoon, all defeated with really high kill rates.

 

So, what is the point then of having all these weapons if nothing happens to enemy defenses?

 

Not even a radar turned off...

 

Can you please help me understand how to employ these weapons?

 

Thank you.

 

Even in real life to kill a SAM you have to over welm it. You can't just fly in alone expect a high kill ratio. It also depends on how you use some weapons like HARMS or JSOW's and JDAM's.

 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

As Yoshua says, you can't go alone against a SAM complex (you can go alone against a single low-medium altitude SAM with HARM+bombs/JSOW/JDAM)

 

Ignoring that, since some patches ago (4 or 5) they touched something on the anti air missiles system that make them terminators, the PK of some weapons was vastly exaggerated (mostly the USA ones), for example the SM-2 now has a PK of 99% against antiship red weapons (i never see one failing, but one rb15 can hit something if you launch 8 ) when in real life SM-6 has a PK of 70%

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/CSBA6173-PGM2_Report_WEB_2.pdf (pag.8 )

something similar happens with hawks/patriots/sa10/11/15.

 

AGM 154 or gb6/ls6-500 downed insulting easily and, in the case of the chinese ones, far away from target.

 

edited reason: pag 8 show as 8)

[GGTharos]

when in real life SM-6 has a PK of 70%

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/CSBA6173-PGM2_Report_WEB_2.pdf (pag.8 )

 

No it isn't. It doesn't say it has a pk of 70%, it says:

 

For instance, if a long-range interceptor such as SM-6 has a probability of kill (Pk

) of 70

percent against a particular ASCM, an attacker could defeat the entire VLS magazine of a $2

billion DDG-51 with a salvo of thirty-two ASCMs

 

It's a statistical calculation given an example Pk, not the real missile Pk - no other parameters are given.

And even then you need a pretty large salvo, and that's not even taking into account passive/soft-kill defenses which aren't a thing in DCS.

 

 

AGM 154 or gb6/ls6-500 downed insulting easily and, in the case of the chinese ones, far away from target.)

 

As it should be. There's nothing to help those weapons hide, no decoys, not your plane trying to draw fire, no ECM messing with the defender's radars or guards sleeping at their posts. The anti-air missiles have no trouble hitting a non-maneuvering target.

SAMs themselves don't have different modes that they have to run in depending on what sort of defense posture they have, they won't hide themselves, there's no out-of-the-box IADS and frankly shooting at mobile SAMs with GPS guided munitions could be a little bit silly - but hey, it's not like SAMs in DCS are mobile or have any sort of other defenses.

 

So really, assessments like 'the missile Pks are too high', or 'DCS just doesn't have EW' are basically gigantic simplifications that don't look at the overall picture. DCS is missing complex interaction and behaviors which go well beyond a single missile's Pk.

 

But you're correct, regardless of ANY of that, the answer is still always 'Bring friends'.

[G.J.S]

Because DCS is missing EW. No aircraft is going in on a SEAD mission without any type of EW system...whether an EA-18, EA-68 or at least a pod.

 

Indeed. An ECM ability is really needed for engagements like SEAD. You need to deteriorate the enemies ability to see you.

 

“You gotta poke ‘em in the eye before ya knee ‘em in the balls“. (Greatest single quote ever given by an instructor!).

Edited June 29, 2020 by garyscott
Grammar.

[Fri13]

I know its not simulated in depth, but it is simulated and does impact enemy SAM effectivity. It's just not available for the Hornet yet.

 

When we talk about Electronic Warfare, we are not talking about Electronic Counter Measurements as main point or even minor point.

 

The EW considers everything from the procedures, tactics, units, locations, positions, communications, coordination etc.

 

The common warfare is as "civilized" as "fly there and drop a bomb" or "fly there and launch a missile". But the EW is completely new kind level with far higher demands from every party of the military. Like example you want to plan a secret attack? You use messengers and not a single electronic communications. The EW touches even such things as giving a orders for a messenger to be delivered to proper group by actually moving it.

 

And DCS does NOT simulate it like at all. Our highest level for that is a chaff (that is modeled like flare, so completely wrong and unrealistic) and ECM (that again is completely wrongly done and unrealistic).

 

If I would put it in the percentage numbers, then DCS is currently "simulating" about 0.5% of the whole Electronic Warfare. If we would get to 30-40% level, it would be very complex stuff and far more challenging for every virtual pilot to be operate on the field.

[Oceandar]

Just for fun and not talking realism, in DCS you can try to fly really low almost few feet above the ground/sea to defeat any air defence in DCS. Bring some dumb bombs and toss on them.

 

When I got bored few weeks ago I flew a Viper online and managed to kill enemy AWACS heavily guarded by various SAM's and ships with low flying profile. The Destroyers shot at me and I didnt even bother to evade just kept flying low and succeeded with the killing.

I remember Ironhand in Flanker 2.5 killed a Moskva class cruiser with dumb bombs by flying really low, dodging its canon fires impressively. Yes it was in Flanker 2.5 but I believe its still doable in DCS. Try that, should be fun lol

 

Good luck.

[Thunderbird]

i fly the F18 and sending a Harpoon over to the ship is useless, Started to drop GBU on it and most time I dodge 6-7 SAM before dropping 1 on it and yeah I fly with my wingman and most time he got targeted as bait :P

[Fri13]

If DCS would reflect reality with the other weapons than dumb bombs, no country would need more than a couple F-16C or F/A-18C to destroy any country defenses with a few good pilots.....

 

But when it comes anything outside the cockpit in DCS, the accuracy of simulation drops. And that is something ED said to be investing more to get it better.

[G.J.S]

i fly the F18 and sending a Harpoon over to the ship is useless, Started to drop GBU on it and most time I dodge 6-7 SAM before dropping 1 on it and yeah I fly with my wingman and most time he got targeted as bait :P

 

:pilotfly:

Wingmen have their uses lol, but as a meat-shield??!!. :lol:

[Thunderbird]

:D he got unlucky 99% of time getting locked