F-14A on the 19th? *wink, wink, nudge nudge*

[fat creason]

I'm sorry, say again? It sounds like we're getting an "A-ish" model, not an A. Why aren't glove vanes being implemented? We've all been waiting this long, might as well release an actual A model when its ready instead of a B with TF30s ....

 

We alternatively could've just released the F-14B and called it quits. How many other modules give you an extra (two) flyables, two campaigns, more than 50 missions, an AI aircraft, AND a carrier? We've always stated that working glove vanes would not be implemented. A vast majority of models with glove vanes had the glove vanes welded closed and they never worked, even leaving the factory. We're giving you an Iranian A and the definitive late 80s A model, is that not enough extra free stuff?

Edited August 21, 2020 by fat creason

[Spurts]

I'm sorry, say again? It sounds like we're getting an "A-ish" model, not an A. Why aren't glove vanes being implemented? We've all been waiting this long, might as well release an actual A model when its ready instead of a B with TF30s ....

Because by the late 80s the glove vanes were deactivated on the A models. A 1970s F-14A would be a new flight model over a LARGE portion of the envelope, that's not trivial.

[westr]

The pilots in development look top quality. I’ve been waiting for this great stuff.

[IronMike]

The advertised product was the A and B Tomcat. What exactly are you giving us free in the $80 module we bought?

 

 

 

 

Yes, it was advertised with what you get beyond the B, for free. No extra charge, no dlc. And that is what Fat creason listed. Or did the hornet cost 40$ last time you checked when there was no sale going on?

 

No biggy if you cannot appreciate it. Others can.

 

 

And the whole discussion is moot anyway, because you get exactly what was promised. The A just was like that, and that's that. There is nothing dumbed down about it, as we do it.

Edited August 21, 2020 by IronMike

[fat creason]

The advertised product was the A and B Tomcat. What exactly are you giving us free in the $80 module we bought?

 

Well, there are currently several $70-80 modules on the store that are just a single flyable aircraft (with lots of missing features I might add). For the same price you're getting A LOT more.

Edited August 21, 2020 by fat creason

[Banzaiib]

Uhm, thats because the A was like that. The glove vanes got removed from it and the rest simply was as described. It is an actual A model...

 

And we said numerous times that we wont be doing glove vanes.

 

 

except for that time you said you were doing the glove vanes... granted, that's a while ago... it's tough to keep track of everything

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3983072&postcount=8

 

 

and I wouldn't say the 14A is free of charge. You promised it before I bought, which means it's part of what I bought... so in a way, I paid for it. Your post implies like you're doing us all a favor, and this is the problem with pre-paying for software that hasn't been finished. You are fulfilling your part of the contract, not doing us all a favor.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Banzaiib

[fat creason]

The primary point is that lack of functioning glove vanes does not make it "A-ish", in fact, I'd argue the opposite. If you look at what you get for $80 and compare it to what you get from other $80 modules, it is effectively a free addon.

[IronMike]

except for that time you said you were doing the glove vanes... granted, that's a while ago... it's tough to keep track of everything

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3983072&postcount=8

 

 

and I wouldn't say the 14A is free of charge. You promised it before I bought, which means it's part of what I bought... so in a way, I paid for it. Your post implies like you're doing us all a favor, and this is the problem with pre-paying for software that hasn't been finished. You are fulfilling your part of the contract, not doing us all a favor.

 

 

Yes, there was a point where we considered it. But once we made the decision I think we were pretty clear about it.

 

TBH; we get it, glove vanes look cool. But on the other side the amount of work to make them, for no benefit at all, no impact on the FM really, it is not worth it. Even when we considered it, we considered it to be only visual, because reworking the entire FM would set us back 2 or 3 years... Just impossible to do. Or, let us downplay the number a bit, since I exaggarated it to make a point: even a 6 month or 1 year setback wouldnt be possible (and only god knows how much time it would cost us in the end really).

 

Another huge issue is that there is basically no real FM data on them, since they were not used, except in the beginning. The little data there is, is not really enough. Consensus was: didnt do much, lets get rid of em, save the weight.

Edited August 21, 2020 by IronMike

[DBFlyguy]

We alternatively could've just released the F-14B and called it quits. How many other modules give you an extra (two) flyables, two campaigns, more than 50 missions, an AI aircraft, AND a carrier? We've always stated that working glove vanes would not be implemented. A vast majority of models with glove vanes had the glove vanes welded closed and they never worked, even leaving the factory. We're giving you an Iranian A and the definitive late 80s A model, is that not enough extra free stuff?

 

Yes, it was advertised with what you get beyond the B, for free. No extra charge, no dlc. And that is what Fat creason listed. Or did the hornet cost 40$ last time you checked when there was no sale going on?

 

No biggy if you cannot appreciate it. Others can.

 

 

Its plain as day on the advertisement that the module included both the A and B for $80 from day one. Now your trying to act like your doing us a favor for delivering on both models? Sure, you could've stopped at the B and that's called fraud.

 

 

The Hornet was sold and advertised as a single aircraft, not sure how that is relevant.

 

 

I don't even know why this is a debate, you advertised the product, you set the price point, sold the product and collect profit from said product. Now that folks ask questions about the product to confirm they are getting what they purchased, you get triggered?

 

 

Obviously we appreciate the missions, AI A-6 and forrestal when they finally come, this doesn't mean we don't actually want the products we actually put money down for. Hope that makes sense.

Edited August 21, 2020 by DBFlyguy

[Banzaiib]

so they have no impact on the FM, but you'd have to completely redo the FM?

 

 

not sure if i track with you on that...

 

now you've decided not to do it at all because it's time and effort and money to deliver something that you've given to us for free of charge... except that's not at all what's going on here. WE paid for a product to contain certain features and we rightly expect to get them.

 

I'm on the losing end of this argument (and have before, just look at my warning %), I know... but there's also a list (long but distinguished... little TOP GUN humor there) of features promised not getting delivered on for other modules, which makes this just a straw breaking the camel's back.

 

 

the 14 is a wonderful module... don't get me wrong. By far better than anything ED's ever done... but that attitude gets me firey.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Banzaiib

[IronMike]

Guys, a) the extra content advertised is being delivered as advertised and b) it is still extra content compared to other modules for free.

 

Maybe this needs a bit clarification: what fat creason meant, is that we could have advertised the B only, and still sold it for over 100$ easily if we wanted to. (he didnt mean that we would strike promised stuff and it would be ok..) But that is not how we want sim products to be. We want them chock full of content and we want to go the extra mile and that is why you are getting 3 aircraft for the price of one, 2 campaigns for the price of one and an AI aircraft and extra carrier for the price of none. Not that hard to understand, is it?

 

The glove vanes were not part of the A except for the most early versions.

 

Yes, they have had little to no effect on the FM. But that doesn't mean that the very little effect doesnt create a ripple effect through all other things FM we did, which would need serious rework, just so you dont notice a big difference. And even beyond that, just making the visual part happen, and have it operate properly, taking all FM impact out of it, would be too much work. On top of that they do not fit in the time frame of the A that we are making.

 

 

 

You will not get them, simple as that, and the product was never advertised that you get glove vanes. We fancied the idea for a while, and then decided that it is a no. You still get the A, just as it is supposed to be. If it is not the A timefrime you wanted most, sorry to disappoint. Please accept that as it is, as we are starting to turn in circles now.

 

And quite honestly, if you cannot appreciate all the extra content you are getting, it baffles me, but ok. You dont have to. However that doesnt change the fact that we will deliver exactly what we promised.

Edited August 21, 2020 by IronMike

[fat creason]

The issue is that you're trying to frame the A we are giving you (and advertised) as "A-ish", not an "actual A model", and a "B with TF30s". Lack of glove vanes makes it none of those things. The A you are getting is what you would find in the fleet throughout nearly all the Tomcat's service life, in addition to an Iranian version. We never advertised glove vanes so expecting them now and saying our product is a fraud is frankly BS. I realize all these extra items have not been released yet (a few are coming very soon), but saying that we are misleading customers is just not true.

 

If you don't want to appreciate the value you're getting from this module when compared to other $80 modules, that's your prerogative. The F-16 costs $80 and you're not getting an F-16A or any other F-16C blocks besides block 50, despite ED not even mentioning which block version you're getting on the Viper store page! Also keep in mind that currently $80 only gets you a fraction of the features mentioned on said store page. Even just creating and testing an additional engine type for the F-14A has not been not a trivial task. How many other $80 modules are doing things like that?

 

You're also very welcome to complain all day about a lack of glove vanes. Maybe we'll add them cosmetically later but that's not my choice to make. Saying that we are not delivering an "actual A model" (and therefore implying the F-14 is a fraudulent product) is patently false and where I have to take issue.

Edited August 21, 2020 by fat creason

[P0G0]

If picture is true I think the heatblur tomcat is not F14B but F14A+.

(See the engines gauges panel)

[Top Jockey]

Well, fully understood here.

 

But since the subject matter is a technical one, I also do have a small doubt regarding an F-14 technical aspect (avionics).

So, @IronMike, @fat creason and anyone from the development team, are you available to answer my question ?

[zone 5]

I can understand the complaint... people REALLY want those early F-14A liveries so they believe a lack of glove vanes reduces the authenticity. Then there is the fact because of your research you know know ALOT more than many of us who think we know all the Tomcats details but haven't done the massive amount of research you've now done. I for one accept glove vanes would be a giant amount of extra work when in terms of realism they were little utilized. As a late 80s fleet F-14A didn't really use glove vanes, I'm delighted we are getting it. Where glove vanes deactivated on Iranian jets? Old photos suggest they always had them operational and even recent photos suggest they still are functional even with the new blue camo and in its new yellow splinter camo so sadly there will be a mountain of complaining. :( Keep up the good work... a Forrestal carrier, a museum quality photo-realistic F-14B and now A (and with canopy de-icers too I hope and and the planned yaw string) is pretty fantastic. Thanks again. Some people just don't know as much as you do now so best just to gently explain; its not nastiness, we just all love this jet.

Edited August 21, 2020 by zone 5

[IronMike]

If picture is true I think the heatblur tomcat is not F14B but F14A+.

(See the engines gauges panel)

 

 

 

 

It's a B with currently still A enginge tapes. The EIG will come to the B cockpit after or with (around) the A release.

[IronMike]

Well, fully understood here.

 

But since the subject matter is a technical one, I also do have a small doubt regarding an F-14 technical aspect (avionics).

So, @IronMike, @fat creason and anyone from the development team, are you available to answer my question ?

 

 

 

 

just ask, buddy, when have we ever not answered a question if we could? :)

[Marxman]

@Banzaiib

I think it's also fair to point out however on the link to Mikes quote, nowhere does it state "Glove Vanes are definately going to be included, that's a promise." Infact it states quite the opposite, there was an original plan to do it but clearly states it is potentially subject to change.

 

Clearly weighing the pros and cons concluded it would be changed and not worth the resources to go ahead and rework the FM. Even if any FM modifications are minor, which sounds like a simple task, bear in mind any changes they make can...and more often than not, WILL break something else and require additional bug fixing time on their part, which I believe is where Mike was coming from on the additional work load statement.

 

In this case, I think HB is being more than generous when you consider one module to include 2 flyable aircraft variants, a carrier and an AI A6. That's far more content than any other single module this far. Yes it's in the contract, and by technicality not "free" content. This is when it comes down to being a decent human being and realising when you've literally won the lottery and found a really good deal. Even if that deal doesn't quite meet your personal biases...I'm sorry, sometimes you simply have to settle for the next best thing, otherwise make it yourself.

 

Honestly it's posts like that which often causes companys to lose transparancy due to words being turned against them, and more often than not, thrown out of context. We are getting an F-14A, the 1980s variant. Sorry if you were excited about receiving an earlier model, but as I said before, sometimes you'll just have to settle for the next best thing.

 

 

Rant over. Sorry that went on...

 

I'll just finish up and say sincerely thank you to HB for this amazing module. I'm personally really excited for the F-14A, regardless of what model it is. In the end, I stand by my statement that this is by far the most content in a single module yet and really raises the bar. Awesome job guys!

Edited August 21, 2020 by Marxman

[Swordsman422]

If picture is true I think the heatblur tomcat is not F14B but F14A+.

(See the engines gauges panel)

 

I'll point out that F-14Bs remanufactured from F-14As retained the analogue engine tapes. Also, again for those people new to the concept, the F-14A+ is NOT an A. It's a B with an older designation.

 

The F-14A we're getting isn't "A-ish" but a reflection of the F-14A in fleet service from a particular time period. By the mid 1990s, the F-14A and B differed only in the engines and one or two places on the IP. Air-to-air, air-to-ground, and ECM capabilities were pretty much the same. Other details like the ECM blisters, TCS pod, gun gas vents, and TACAN antennas were identical.

 

We are getting an F-14A, but we're getting this one...

 

...and not this one...

Edited August 21, 2020 by Swordsman422

[Top Jockey]

just ask, buddy, when have we ever not answered a question if we could? :)

 

Thank you for your time.

My doubt is not intended at ascertaining sim fidelity purposes; but mere curiosity about the F-14's avionics symbology in real life - for any version, and not just the 2 specific versions we will have in the sim.

 

Regarding the AIM-9 Sidewinder's (whichever version) seekerhead symbol in the HUD, only in the F-14A, A+ and B versions (not the D version with the SparrowHawk HUD).

 

So, that any of you, developers, SMEs, pilots, etc. knew:

Did at any of the many iterations in the Tomcat's avionics, ever existed a visible search pattern for the AIM-9's seekerhead in the HUD ?

 

From 4:27 onward.

 

My points:

 

1 - the "Fleet Defender" vídeo above clearly shows what I'm refering to;

 

2 - on other threads people already have told "it never happened"... but I'm not seeing the Fleet Defender developers to invent that detail / feature specifically, even more when they took such efforts to make the F-14's avionics as much as realistic as possible;

 

3 - the radar mode "VSL Low" depicts the diamond symbol executing a search pattern... so I'm not so fast to discard, that something similar might once have existed for the AIM-9 seekerhead symbol also.

 

Some time ago, @gyrovague and @naquaii kindly shared some knowledge about AIM-9 symbology features / logic, but some stuf remains somewhat foggy.

 

 

Concluding.

My doubt is not about the several different search patterns for the AIM-9 (double-D; epicyclic circle, etc), but instead - if at anytime in the Tomcat's life any of the AIM-9 search patterns was ever visible at the HUD ?

 

Thank you.

[Gladius]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about the glove vanes. Because the use was so small that they were locked to the school and also their engines were removed to reduce the weight, why do they insist on it?

 

We know what we are getting and I am looking forward to the Iran version and appreciate the additional content we are getting for the Tomcat. It could have gone the other way and we would pay extra for a Tomcat DLC with the A-6, Forrestal and the A version. But here we have this in addition to the Tomcat.

HB is doing a great job, of course I miss an important feature for me that was announced and is not finished yet. But I know that it will come sometime.

 

HB is always very open with us, please appreciate that and don't put every sentence on the gold scale.

[Victory205]

Good grief, glove vanes and sidewinder search patterns again.

 

It's Friday, today I finished 40 years flying for a living, I'm going to pour myself a Scotch...

 

:drink:

[sLYFa]

Cheers to that! Hope you don't retire from virtual flying though :)

[Top Jockey]

Good grief, glove vanes and sidewinder search patterns again.

 

It's Friday, today I finished 40 years flying for a living, I'm going to pour myself a Scotch...

 

:drink:

 

Congratulations.

 

Well, last 31st, I attained 40 years living.

So it's easy to see, how iconic aircraft like the F-14 can cause an impression since one's youth.

[TLTeo]

sidewinder search patterns again.

 

 

Hey to be fair those are pretty nifty and moderately useful (unlike the glove vanes :P). Cheers!