Comms menu rework

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I like the idea. Sure its “in your face for a second” (kinda like a radio HUD) but since there are no keyboards in real aircraft, I don’t want one in my sim pit. The goal of DCS should be total elimination of the keyboard as it breaks immersion.

Of course optional would be best...

[Swift.]

You’d have to bind a HOTAS button to it and all those are used by real commands so there’s no extra ones to use. Your radio key brings up the comms menu now but you’d need an extra button for the wheel. The F keys are actually easier. Or mic switch with the throttle hand and pick menu with the right hand on the mouse. Other than VR users I can’t see why the current menu is a problem. For hands free function there’s still VA

 

The idea was that instead of the top right corner comms menu, you would see this wheel.

 

So the only button you need is the radio PTT button. You press that once, then look towards the option you want, as you do with the jester wheel right now.

 

Press(PTT) - look (TrackIR/VR) - Press(PTT)

[Swift.]

Of course it cannot be hands free unless voice activated. My suggestion is to make it at least bindable (keys, buttons) and customizable (size and place).

 

Correct, it cant be completely hands free. At least with my idea you only need 1 button (the mix button) everything else is done with your head movement, instead of using the keyboard or mouse.

[sirrah]

To all those against the ring. How do you suggest ED implement a hands free comms menu?

 

The ring was just my suggestion to the problem of keyboard fumbling, whats yours?

The radial menu also isn't hands free. You'd have to at least press one key to activate it ;). And as many others said already, it blocks a rather large portion of your screen (placing it in the top right corner will require one to physically look at it, which isn't very ergonomic imo)

 

As said before, nowadays my vote goes out to a highlighted "up, down, right, left" style menu.

You open the menu like you do now, the top line will be highlighted (like in my screenshot, or even with a color), you use a hat switch to select the required line (right being "enter", and left being "go back" obviously). A soft audio click could maybe be added optionally, so one can eventually blindly operate it.

 

 

 

One way or the other.. There's certainly a high demand on a VR friendly comms menu. Just a small selection:

• https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=199466
  
• https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=245146
  
• http://forums.eagle.ru:8080/showthread.php?t=243113
  
• https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=171654
  
• https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=239913
  
• https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=234783
  

 

 

 

EDIT: I see some of my arguments were sniped :D

[Fri13]

Let me bind the radio functions to HOTAS (ICS, UHF, FM etc) as in a real thing, and then when I press those let me use a 4-way, 8-way or mini-stick to point a radio pie-menu directions and make a selection with it (release or another button).

 

Best would be 4-way hat function as it is in most joysticks at least with one.

 

In a real aircraft one just press a PTT button and talks, and it should be that way, no requirement for mouse or keyboard at all. And no "head pointing" like Jester menu.

[Swift.]

Maybe I'm not seeing what you are all trying to describe. But it seems to me like the idea of using a hat will require and extra 4 buttons, hardly the 'hands free' design that I first laid out.

 

As for having to look at the menu if its in the top right: No that's not what I was intending to describe. The menu isn't the focus of ones look, but rather an indicator of where the 'look' has gone. Looking down selected the lower most option, looking up selects the uppermost option, etc.

 

And as I said, yes the radial menu isnt 100% 'hands free' it will simply mean that you only need to press the radio button. There will no longer be the need to have the radio button+12 F keys, or as some of you have described, the radio button+4 way hat.

 

Consider the jester wheel, that requires only a single button to use. The rest of it is operated through the use of a headtracker. That exact operation is what I am envisaging here.

[Taz1004]

The idea of marking menu style 4 quadrant menu is again, be able to make selection fast without reading so the appearance wouldn't really matter in the end. Could just be text at top, down, left, right.

 

Maybe pressing any of the arrow key (or hat switch) once will activate the menu. Then let's say up, up, left, down is "Wingman attack my target". Then you'd just press that really quick without reading after you get used to it.

 

Also common commands should be same between all modules.

[Swift.]

To the argument of it being distracting:

What is it distracting you from? Using the existing comms menu requires just as much attention shift, except it also requires you to look away from the game to find the relevant F key.

 

To the idea of using a hat to control the comms menu:

Perhaps there could be the logic that when the comms wheel is opened(using the existing radio binds) then the aircrafts TDC equivalent(if it has one) will become repurposed to a directional control for this comms wheel. This way it gives the option of using the TDC for those that don't like or have headtracking.

[Swift.]

The idea of marking menu style 4 quadrant menu is again, be able to make selection fast without reading so the appearance wouldn't really matter in the end. Could just be text at top, down, left, right.

 

Maybe pressing any of the arrow key (or hat switch) once will activate the menu. Then let's say up, up, left, down is "Wingman attack my target". Then you'd just press that really quick without reading after you get used to it.

 

Also common commands should be same between all modules.

 

Yeah, no argument there. The radio commands should be in a common place across all modules. As they are right now in the F key menu.

 

Anyone who has extensive experience in the competitive shooter CSGO, will know how fast one can become at using a radial wheel like this. Eventually you learn where all the options are (as I assume most F14 pilots have done), then it simply becomes a matter of cycling through a learned set of actions (in this case head movements): press, up, press, right, press, etc

 

 

Using a 4 way wheel, would allow a greater margin of error when clicking on the options, but would also limit the number of options that can be displayed. The current menu used 12 options, but perhaps that could be reduced to something like 6 or 8 (as the jester wheel has)

[Taz1004]

I don't think it's issue of distraction but rather matter of opinion. Everyone has different preference on how something "looks". Even Jester wheel, not everyone likes it.

Asking how something "looks" and how something "sounds" are asking for trouble.

 

Using a 4 way wheel, would allow a greater margin of error when clicking on the options, but would also limit the number of options that can be displayed. The current menu used 12 options, but perhaps that could be reduced to something like 6 or 8 (as the jester wheel has)

 

In the end, I think that's what really matters. Rather than what it looks like. How many selections in each menu layer. Many people have been wanting to map the comm to HOTAS for years but 12 is just too many.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Taz1004

[sirrah]

As for having to look at the menu if its in the top right: No that's not what I was intending to describe. The menu isn't the focus of ones look, but rather an indicator of where the 'look' has gone. Looking down selected the lower most option, looking up selects the uppermost option, etc.

 

Perhaps I don't understand you, but if you have a small radial menu in the top right corner (to not obscure too much), how will I be selecting, let's say, the 7 o'clock pizza slice. I mean in VR I'd have to look down left, so I won't be able to see the entire menu and if I select the correct slice.

 

Anyways.. let's just agree, something needs to be done :D

[Swift.]

In the end, I think that's what really matters. Rather than what it looks like. How many selections in each menu layer. Many people have been wanting to map the comm to HOTAS for years but 12 is just too many.

 

Ideally we would have a reduced clutter comms menu, with only 4-6 categories or such. And have the option to bind the categories directly eg F1-F6, as a direction eg TDC up-down-left-right, or as a look and control eg TrackIR up-down-left-right.

[Swift.]

Perhaps I don't understand you, but if you have a small radial menu in the top right corner (to not obscure too much), how will I be selecting, let's say, the 7 o'clock pizza slice. I mean in VR I'd have to look down left, so I won't be able to see the entire menu and if I select the correct slice.

 

Anyways.. let's just agree, something needs to be done :D

 

If only there was a way to have the menu be larger and in the centre of the view :lol:

[Fri13]

Maybe I'm not seeing what you are all trying to describe. But it seems to me like the idea of using a hat will require and extra 4 buttons, hardly the 'hands free' design that I first laid out.[/Quote]

 

It is time we get a proper modifiers where a modified itself can be a function/action itself.

 

I have already done these, it is just DCS that is lacking a proper implementation of the menu to pie form (why pie is better is you have less buttons presses to get everywhere and you can learn patterns like "right, down, right, up".

[Fri13]

Here is what was my idea from Tribes game years ago about utilizing a PTT radio button and a 4-way hat (any hat that is temporarily assigned for this radio com function as long PTT is kept down):

 

Starsiege TRIBES Voice Command Hotkey List

 

Each command is bound to a three-key combination. Press V to bring up the Menu List, then

the appropriate letter of the corresponding menu.

 

Offense Menu

V-V-A: Attack!

V-V-N: Attack the enemy

V-V-B: Attack the enemy base

V-V-J: Attack objective

V-V-K: Capture the objective

V-V-S: Get the objective

V-V-W: Wait for signal

V-V-C: Cease fire!

V-V-M: Move out!

V-V-R: Retreat

V-V-H: Hit the deck!

V-V-E: Regroup

V-V-V: Cover me!

V-V-G: Going offense

V-V-O: Going on offense

V-V-X: Board Personnel Carrier

V-V-Z: Personnel Carrier Ready

 

Target Menu

V-T-A: Target acquired

V-T-F: Fire on my target

V-T-N: Target needed

V-T-O: Target out of range

V-T-D: Destroy enemy generator

V-T-E: Enemy generator destroyed

V-T-T: Destroy enemy turret

V-T-S: Enemy turret destroyed

 

Defense Menu

V-D-I: Incoming enemies!

V-D-A: We're being attacked!

V-D-E: The enemy is attacking our base!

V-D-N: We need more defense

V-D-B: Defend our base

V-D-D: Defending our base

V-D-G: Go on the defensive

V-D-T: Base taken

V-D-C: Base clear

V-D-Q: Is our base clear?

V-D-O: Defend objective

 

Flag Menu

V-F-G: Flag not in base

V-F-E: Enemy has flag

V-F-H: Have enemy flag

V-F-S: Flag is secure

V-F-F: Get enemy flag

V-F-M: Flag is mined

V-F-C: Clear mines from flag

V-F-D: Mines cleared

 

Need Menu

V-R-R: Need repairs

V-R-A: Need APC pickup

V-R-E: Need escort

V-R-T: Need ammo

V-R-O: Repair objective

 

Team Menu

V-E-W: Watch shooting

V-E-D: Don't know

V-E-N: No

V-E-Y: Yes

V-E-T: Thanks

V-E-A: No problem

V-E-S: Sorry

V-E-]: Ready

V-E-E: Help!

V-E-[: Wait!

V-E-H: Hurry at Station

 

Global Menu

V-G-Z: D'oh!

V-G-O: Oops

V-G-S: Shazbot!

V-G-Q: Dammit!

V-G-C: Ah, crap!

V-G-E: Duh!

V-G-X: You idiot!

V-G-Y: Yawn

V-G-M: Hmmmm...

 

Animations Menu

V-A-O: Over here!

V-A-D: Move out of the way

V-A-R: Retreat!

V-A-S: Stop

V-A-F: Salute

V-A-Z: Kneel pose

V-A-X: Stand pose

V-A-Q: Celebrate 1

V-A-E: Celebrate 2

V-A-W: Celebrate 3

V-A-V: Taunt 1

V-A-G: Taunt 2

V-A-1: Taunt 3

V-A-2: Taunt 4

V-A-3: Taunt 5

V-A-4: Taunt 6

V-A-H: Wave - Hi

V-A-B: Wave - Bye

 

Command Response Menu

V-Z-A: Acknowledged

V-Z-Z: Completed

V-Z-U: Unable to comply

[/Quote]

 

The Tribes radio system has more functions than DCS, but all were under fingertips and always behind a three letters. V was the "PTT" button to initiate call, and then you needed two press more to make a call. You learn quickly to perform all without looking and while fighting (using mouse and keyboard for movement and shooting same time).

 

Was a fun game, considering it was faster paced modern combat with all electronic warfare including stealth, jamming, laser designators, beacons, navigation and communication systems, fighters, bombers, tanks, energy and speed management, FARPS, JTACS, dynamic launch zones for weapons, heat and laser seaking missiles with flares and all... And it was still just a FPS game...

 

[SharpeXB]

You guys are all wanting to just make this more complicated. It’s very simple now so why worry?

If you really want hands free like IRL then use this Voice Attack thingy

[sirrah]

You guys are all wanting to just make this more complicated. It’s very simple now so why worry?

If you really want hands free like IRL then use this Voice Attack thingy

I think you might have not read all posts (very imaginable too, as there are so many threads about this subject :smilewink:)

 

So again; some of us can't properly use voice activated tools

 

The (thread/post)numbers don't lie: Within the community there's a high demand for a more (VR) friendly radio menu within DCS

[Home Fries]

I wouldn't mind using the POV hat to navigate menus. However, the functions would ideally be remappable and not tied to a specific keybind (like POV slew). These options would provide maximum flexibility.

 

The only problem with the current UI is that there is no way to assign one button to two functions within a module. The fix for this could be assigning "Menu Up/Dn/Lt/Rt" keystrokes/buttons to the UI Layer, and then assign POV hat as default. Then the code could only override the standard POV commands when the comm menu is up.

 

While I don't recommend this for a default setup (because it requires a HOTAS with at least 3 hats), I have my profile set so that while the comm button is held, Hats 2-4 are mapped to F1-F12 (starting at hat 2 and working clockwise). Something similar (i.e. holding down the comm button remaps the POV hat to navigate the menu, and releasing the comm button optionally releases the comm menu) would be a nice feature as well.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Home Fries

[Fri13]

You guys are all wanting to just make this more complicated. It’s very simple now so why worry?[/Quote]

 

So you don't understand now how bad the current one is. It is OK for desktop use in 80's style, but not for a HOTAS and especially VR use.

 

If you really want hands free like IRL then use this Voice Attack thingy

 

Voice commands are not user interface. And voice commands are terrible method. Those ain't even immersive features if you can't have a AI that understands what you mean flexible manner.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Fri13

[Taz1004]

So again; some of us can't properly use voice activated tools

 

I haven't seen a poll but I wouldn't be surprised vast majority don't use voice commands.

I personally can't use it due to noisy environment.

 

There always will be naysayers to any change.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Taz1004

[Fri13]

 

There always will be naysayers to any change.

 

This ain't even a change, but an option. This is improvement to current GUI for all users, while anyone who wants and can use voice commands would still be able to do so.

 

This would just allow players to have setup without keyboard, mouse and so on.

[SharpeXB]

So you don't understand now how bad the current one is. It is OK for desktop use in 80's style, but not for a HOTAS and especially VR use.

I see the problem with using the F keys in VR because it requires the keyboard. I’d prefer something much less obtrusive though on a screen. I think in VR seeing a big wheel in front of my face would be even more obtrusive than seeing it on a screen. Can’t you click on the options in VR just like on a screen? I think I’d prefer that in VR as well.

[Frederf]

I'm no professional UI designer but to me I envision a quote-unquote good design has the following properties:

 

1. Non-obstructive in visual situations (AAR, dog fight, carrier landing, etc.)

2. VR-compatible

3. Accessible by a variety of input methods (keyboard, joystick, voice, head direction, lua backend API, etc.)

 

Too often in discussing design changes aspects old design are assumed to be present in a new design. "How are we going to read the text?" Who says the interface has to have text? "How am I doing to scroll the list?" Who says the interface is a list?

[Fri13]

I’d prefer something much less obtrusive though on a screen.[/Quote]

 

This is just about the ideas how to complete the task. Not how it exactly looks.

Like here some has already mentioned line graphics with just texts in the circle, without any graphical elements. So it is like current radio call list but just in new order.

 

We could have a transparency, scaling, theming and such option for user, but have the basic core functionality of the hat operation.

 

I think in VR seeing a big wheel in front of my face would be even more obtrusive than seeing it on a screen. Can’t you click on the options in VR just like on a screen? I think I’d prefer that in VR as well.

 

Yes you can, I use that partially now. But radio calls I have binded to main important ones to hat in some cases so I can quickly issue commands to wingman as "Join me", "Attack my target", "Engage bandits" and "Cover me". It is super easy when it is hat direction as I remember it from a push direction of the hat:

Up = Attack My Target (specific front of me)

Right = Return To Formation (to my right wing)

Down = Cover Me (my six)

Left = Engage Bandits

 

But as those are already a existing HC bindings, you can't really be creative with them. And managing 4 flight wing is just very slow. It would be easier to again be able perform selection as:

 

Up = Wingman 1

Right = Wingman 2

Down = Wingman 3

Left = Wingman 4

 

Other combos could be:

 

Up = Attack

Right = Return

Down = Defend

Left = Go to

 

If we could get a set of combos for the group, and then way to combine them, to make a 4-5 combos of "Left, Right, Right, Up" then you could chain commands by initiation it by pressing PTT button.

 

And of course one of the important elements is as well to cancel mistakes or start from scratch and that could be a double click PTT in 0,8 second time.

 

In time one wouldn't need any GUI for most common tasks as it becomes a easy to remember combos as tasks are done in orders like example the Tribes command combos with a tree sets.

[Taz1004]

If someone has time, can probably do a mock up with Flash or even html... :music_whistling:

Question is... will ED even gonna look at it.