Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[Knock-Knock]

I can handle slow development, as long as things are moving forward, Im fine with it. I had no issues or panic about the EA label coming off the Harrier, cause its coming off the Hornet later this year too, yet the Hornet will still see plenty of features coming after EA. So EA label off didnt mean it was a finished product. But that doesnt apply to the Harrier, its considered complete?? Now that is very confusing, and incredibly disappointing. Its actually taking the piss.

[SGT Coyle]

I can handle slow development, as long as things are moving forward, Im fine with it. I had no issues or panic about the EA label coming off the Harrier, cause its coming off the Hornet later this year too, yet the Hornet will still see plenty of features coming after EA. So EA label off didnt mean it was a finished product. But that doesnt apply to the Harrier, its considered complete?? Now that is very confusing, and incredibly disappointing. Its actually taking the piss.

 

This whole idea of "complete" leaves me wondering exactly what is the criteria for "complete"? How many bugs are you allowed? How many systems do you need complete?

The whole system seems a bit arbitrary and insulting to my intelligence.

 

If you have a system for making the determination weather a Third Party Module is ready for release, put out there. I'd like to see what I can expect on the next update.

[Sajarov]

This whole idea of "complete" leaves me wondering exactly what is the criteria for "complete"? How many bugs are you allowed? How many systems do you need complete?

The whole system seems a bit arbitrary and insulting to my intelligence.

 

If you have a system for making the determination weather a Third Party Module is ready for release, put out there. I'd like to see what I can expect on the next update.

Feature complete.

When all items of the product feature list are implemented and working in the sim.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my MiG-29S (9-13S) using Tapatalk

[bkthunder]

Feature complete.

When all items of the product feature list are implemented and working in the sim.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my MiG-29S (9-13S) using Tapatalk

 

 

I highlighted the important part just in case someone at ED/Razbam missed it.

[Knock-Knock]

This whole idea of "complete" leaves me wondering exactly what is the criteria for "complete"? How many bugs are you allowed? How many systems do you need complete?

The whole system seems a bit arbitrary and insulting to my intelligence.

 

If you have a system for making the determination weather a Third Party Module is ready for release, put out there. I'd like to see what I can expect on the next update.

 

Are those questions for me? Im confused.

[SGT Coyle]

"implemented and working". That's disappointing. I was hoping for a little more detail.

[SGT Coyle]

Are those questions for me? Im confused.

No. I agree with you. Their for ED.

[BIGNEWY]

Out of early access does not mean no bugs, just so we are clear on that.

 

thanks

[viper2097]

Honestly, bugs will always be there and coming up.

The questin is simple how and how fast they will be handled.

 

But there should be no discussion that a module should be feature complete and all features should work as they should when leaving early access.

[SmirkingGerbil]

It should

 

I have no dog in this hunt, but being in the world I am in, not necessarily so.

 

Subscribe to bug and IOC (indication of compromise) reports for Microsoft and Cisco products, since many of their products make up about 90% or our infrastructure.

 

I get anywhere from 10 to 30 bug fix, bug tracker, IOC updates DAILY. Every day, not old alerts recycled, new ones DAILY. This is for a broad spectrum of hardware and software, some of it several years old and considered "feature complete - stable"

 

I am not defending or taking sides here, but stable code, even some years old, gets new issues uncovered daily.

 

I have so much hardware to update, to address bug fixes and vulnerabilities, that spans MOW (most of the world) I could hire a team of 80 people and would still not be able to keep up with the bug fixes that pour out of OEMs daily - for stable released, production code.

[BIGNEWY]

Honestly, bugs will always be there and coming up.

The questin is simple how and how fast they will be handled.

 

But there should be no discussion that a module should be feature complete and all features should work as they should when leaving early access.

 

Correct, there will always be bugs in any software.

 

Feature complete is the implementation of the features, of course any bugs should be addressed, and that can be done in product sustainment.

 

I have sent some feedback to RAZBAM, it is still early morning for them so I am waiting for a reply.

 

thanks

[TLTeo]

"No bugs" is always going to be a gray-ish zone really. I'd say something in the ballpark of the Belsimtek modules, Viggen or Mig-21 are decent spots to aim for.

 

edit: The issue is not about the number of bugs though, but in how quickly and effectively they are tackled. I think it's safe to say that Razbam have been very lackluster in that area.

[Al-Azraq]

"No bugs" is always going to be a gray-ish zone really. I'd say something in the ballpark of the Belsimtek modules, Viggen or Mig-21 are decent spots to aim for.

 

"No bugs" in software development is very difficult, especially in an ever evolving platform like DCS is. These bugs should be kept at minimum, but what I know for sure is that a product should be feature complete and the Harrier is not.

[SGT Coyle]

Out of early access does not mean no bugs, just so we are clear on that.

 

thanks

OK, we now know what it doesn't mean.

 

 

Can you describe in detail what it does mean? Because it still seems arbitrary.

Not to mention rushed. I don't remember seeing anything about AV8B coming out of EA. I would have expected to hear something. I get the news letter. I follow the YTers. It's deafening how quiet this has been rolled out.

[Fri13]

I don't remember seeing anything about AV8B coming out of EA. I would have expected to hear something. I get the news letter. I follow the YTers. It's deafening how quiet this has been rolled out.

 

Up to this post of yours, I thought that Harrier was still in a EA, but it was considered to be released as feature complete.... But that it has already happen.... That is a news to me...

[Sajarov]

Out of early access does not mean no bugs, just so we are clear on that.

 

thanks

That's easy. An implemented and working system can have bugs. The system is working, but not properly.

 

Also, When ED changes something and the system stop to work, the system is corrected ASAP (i.e. DeKA EXP radar modes). That's Sustainment mode. It keeps systems working when the core changes.

 

That's a release product for me.

 

 

Sent from my MiG-29S (9-13S) using Tapatalk

[Fri13]

Feature complete is the implementation of the features, of course any bugs should be addressed, and that can be done in product sustainment.

 

Everyone should understand and accept that bugs always exist some manner or other, especially if you are tweaking the software in case (and AV-8B is dependent to DCS World so parts there changing can bring up new bugs in Harrier).

But that Harrier to be considered "feature complete" is little stretch in my opinion. Or then I have missed some kind couple major updates, what is again about the point that Razbam communication has been what it has been.

 

But if I would load the Harrier today for flight, shouldn't I be expected then to be able even complete basic combat missions without problems (denying it) or missing features?

[Cornelius]

is there anyone else who still has not realised that out of ea does not mean bug free?:yawn:

[Roo5ter]

So much for the DMT slaving to the aim9 seeker head so we have some sort of IFF. Aim9L would be nice for cold war era servers...

 

George Bush 'Mission Accomplished' comes to mind here.

 

The Harrier is by far my favorite module and finally I have felt slighted in the fact that RAZBAM has so many modules in the pipeline they have committed to, then they provide poor communications on what is going on with the Harrier and follow that up with an out of the blue MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

 

I think this may be a way around their promise to 'finish' existing modules before moving on to releasing others in EA. If they say it is finished, then it is... right? :thumbup:

Edited September 8, 2020 by Roo5ter

[Eagle7907]

Wow. This is very disturbing. Just when the lack of communication from RAZBAM was bad enough, then poof! Out of EA with still lots of missing items. Not bugs. That SE is looking more like a pipe dream to me.

 

 

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[Cunctator]

My suggestion and as I handle things now: Don't pay for promises. Only make a purchase if you think the current product is worth the price. I've learned my lesson with Star Citizen.

 

I bought the Harrier at a 50 % sale two years ago and I already got enough hours of fun out of it for my 32 €, especially compared to other hobbies.

[Roo5ter]

This is one of the moments that makes you think twice about buying in to an EA module. At least with the F16, we knew ED would work hard to make it right even if it was not a smooth launch and is aggressive with fixes along the way.

[kengou]

This is a very concerning development. I had pledged to myself, and will continue to, that I wouldn’t buy any further RAZBAM products until the existing aircraft were complete. This move signals to me that they consider the Harrier to be complete now, and it absolutely is not. I’ll continue to hold off on purchases until their “product sustainment” leads to a completed Harrier where every important feature of the plane is implemented. That means mark points, that means a targeting pod and dmt that doesn’t glitch out and point somewhere random, that means a hud flir that works, that means all appropriate vrest and other mfd pages fully implemented.

 

It might be a long while or never before I consider the F-15e or whatever comes next.

[BIGNEWY]

Please keep the topic on the AV-8B please.

 

thank you

[notproplayer3]

Haha, this feels like a joke from razbam, I know razbam employees have got ED accounts so why can no one from them answer ? I still repect big NEWY for being on this thread but come on, it just feels a bit ridiculous.

Anyway while this doesn't relate dirrectly to the question of the harrier being feature complete or not, the fact that it has gone out of early access should still signify that bugs that were reported 100 or more days ago (which they are a lot of) should be fixed and acknoledged in the most part.

Here's the stuff:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269108

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gYpmYD4VVaTn1YkHd_K7CJxOysoOqdN-K5oZs_anX7c/edit#gid=24479841