Red Coalition Planes...

[Cmptohocah]

9 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Would be nice if you can find the video.

Found it! Time stamp 10:37 
One can see that the masked numbers are represented as three asterisk characters (***), so my guess would be that it's beyond 100km
 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cmptohocah
Added personal observation.

[Skysurfer]

3 minutes ago, Cmptohocah said:

Found it! Time stamp 10:37

 

 

 

Thanks! Interesting find. Seems rather odd that they'd paint "27-2" in large red letters onto it and specifically mention it and show it. Think what you will I guess.

[Cmptohocah]

6 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

...Seems rather odd that they'd paint "27-2" in large red letters onto it and specifically mention it and show it...

Maybe it's for the ground crew not to get confused
Imagine they hook up a regular old R-27 and the pilot goes out full of confidence, just to realize that the max range is 25km

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cmptohocah

[Skysurfer]

Just now, Cmptohocah said:

Maybe it's for the ground crew not to get confused
Imagine they hook up a regular old R-27 and the pilot goes out full of confidence, just to realize that the max range is 25km

 

 

Right, just watch that doc. and listen to the picture that is being painted. If you don't see what's blatant then that's fine. Like I said, think what you will. 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/16532/Ukrainian_Polish_Consortium_To_Supply_40_R_27P1_Missiles_For_Polish_MiG_21_Jets#.YG21FegzZPY

WTH? Article is from 2016 and Poland retired their 21s in 2003.

[Skysurfer]

14 minutes ago, draconus said:

WTH? Article is from 2016 and Poland retired their 21s in 2003.

 

Yeah that article actually confused the Mig-21 with the 29, which only goes tho show the quality of journalism these days.  

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

One can see that the masked numbers are represented as three asterisk characters (***), so my guess would be that it's beyond 100km

FWIW the baseline ER has a max range of, what, 110km launched high and fast so im not sure that this range particularly means much. But good find nonetheless.

2 hours ago, TotenDead said:

But if the americans believed it their missiles they would've made it energetical, not maneuverable, wouldn't they?XD

F-18 is a multirole carrier based fighter that made a lot of compromises to be able to accomplish A2A, A2G, and good low-speed handling for carrier ops. So not relevant. How about comparing the F-15C? Or F-14? Or F-16?

[BlackPixxel]

Note how the housing for the connection of reference/datalink antennas to the seeker section is black.

On quite a few R-27 shown recently it is black.

It used to be white.

 

Maybe a part that gets replaced when the R-27 goes through modernisation, or for newly domestic build ones.

 

[Fri13]

2 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

I saw it on one of the Su variants deployed in Syria. It's the "Combat Approved" series which can be found on YT and there you can clearly see a mark saying "R-27ER2" and when the journalist asked about the range, the answer was that it's classified. Looking through the videos now, trying to find it.

 

I recalled directly the video you are referring to. It is part of their Syria series. Where the pilot says aloud the range of the R-27 variant and it is censored with a beep. 

 

Here is one of them: https://youtu.be/opI_sgUS8J4?t=1454

And here is from the Su-35 in Russia with R-77: https://youtu.be/z4vYgQc7WZo?t=1226

 

 

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Yeah that article actually confused the Mig-21 with the 29, which only goes tho show the quality of journalism these days.  

 

The quality of journalism these days is question of the speed to hit "Publish". Lots of information is just repeated, reworded and simply changed. Why you need to read dozens of articles to gasp a overall picture and then required to make your own judgement unless you find a some better source to reveal more insightful information. 

[Skysurfer]

35 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

Note how the housing for the connection of reference/datalink antennas to the seeker section is black.

On quite a few R-27 shown recently it is black.

It used to be white.

 

Maybe a part that gets replaced when the R-27 goes through modernisation, or for newly domestic build ones.

 

 

Might also be a refublishment procedure to refublish older missiles that are running out of shelf life. I.e. domestic electronics and upgrades. Also note how this is an R and not the ER.

 

23 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

I recalled directly the video you are referring to. It is part of their Syria series. Where the pilot says aloud the range of the R-27 variant and it is censored with a beep. 

 

Here is one of them: https://youtu.be/opI_sgUS8J4?t=1454

And here is from the Su-35 in Russia with R-77: https://youtu.be/z4vYgQc7WZo?t=1226

 

 

 

The 77-1 shown in the latter video is referenced as an anti-radiation missile, which is fairly interesting to say the least. Unless they added some dual mode homing seeker. Th R-27 shown in the first is a bseline R or T respectively, which mostly eiminates any discussion about range advantage  and is probably intended for engaging low flying helicopters or drones.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Skysurfer

[TotenDead]

13 часов назад, dundun92 сказал:

FWIW the baseline ER has a max range of, what, 110km launched high and fast so im not sure that this range particularly means much. But good find nonetheless.

F-18 is a multirole carrier based fighter that made a lot of compromises to be able to accomplish A2A, A2G, and good low-speed handling for carrier ops. So not relevant. How about comparing the F-15C? Or F-14? Or F-16?

Tell it that it's not relevant when it gets shot down. Btw, according to DCS, F-14 and F-15 have worse acceleration and top speed compared to MiG-29. Oof, poor americans and their missiles. Btw, since when  Su-27 had become not fast enough?

11 часов назад, Skysurfer сказал:

 

The 77-1 shown in the latter video is referenced as an anti-radiation missile, which is fairly interesting to say the least.

 

 

Poor translation. He said radar guided in russian

Edited April 8, 2021 by TotenDead

[Cmptohocah]

13 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

..Also note how this is an R and not the ER...

 

How can you tell?
I am just curious, 'cause I thought that the ERs are longer and in the video the missile seems to go all the way up, almost touching the main landing gear assembly. The second one behind it, seems pretty close too.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Cmptohocah

[GGTharos]

They have a larger diameter rocket motor section.  You can tell quite easily as they flare out.

[Cmptohocah]

27 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

They have a larger diameter rocket motor section.  You can tell quite easily as they flare out.

Ah, I see. The diameter is not the same on the E version.

[Ironhand]

20 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Found it! Time stamp 10:37 
One can see that the masked numbers are represented as three asterisk characters (***), so my guess would be that it's beyond 100k...

 

 

 

Unfortunately, that's a big assumption. That's a pretty standard way of indicating missing information. Either *** or ...

[Skysurfer]

7 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Tell it that it's not relevant when it gets shot down. Btw, according to DCS, F-14 and F-15 have worse acceleration and top speed compared to MiG-29. Oof, poor americans and their missiles. Btw, since when  Su-27 had become not fast enough?

 

Poor translation. He said radar guided in russian

 

 

Both are Mach 2 capable, like I said the comparison is a bit more complicated than that. Mig-29 (9.12) doesn't have the radar or range to do literally any BVR to begin with so it's a bad comparison.

 

Well, he does say "данная ракета радиолокационная для уничтожения целей радиолокационных на большом расстоянии" which is an interesting wording to say the least and makes it sound like it's some radar homing missile. Probably a reference to a HOJ function? I do speak russian so I know how to interpret said statement.  

Edited April 8, 2021 by Skysurfer

[TotenDead]

36 минут назад, Skysurfer сказал:

 

Both are Mach 2 capable, like I said the comparison is a bit more complicated than that. Mig-29 (9.12) doesn't have the radar or range to do literally any BVR to begin with so it's a bad comparison.

 

Really? So, 75km detection range vs 3m2 target is WVR? Okay, lol

36 минут назад, Skysurfer сказал:

Well, he does say "данная ракета радиолокационная для уничтожения целей радиолокационных на большом расстоянии" which is an interesting wording to say the least and makes it sound like it's some radar homing missile. Probably a reference to a HOJ function? I do speak russian so I know how to interpret said statement.  

 

That means that it's radar guided missile designed to destroy targets, detected by radar. I know, i'm russian

[BlackPixxel]

4 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Both are Mach 2 capable, like I said the comparison is a bit more complicated than that. Mig-29 (9.12) doesn't have the radar or range to do literally any BVR to begin with so it's a bad comparison.

 

 

Radar in the real aircraft is good enough, it is just the DCS implementation that is below the real world values (for all FC3 aircraft).

[Skysurfer]

2 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Radar in the real aircraft is good enough, it is just the DCS implementation that is below the real world values (for all FC3 aircraft).

 

And you know this how?

[Seaeagle]

On 4/7/2021 at 3:56 PM, Skysurfer said:

 

What else are you going to compare the R-27 to (specifically ER)? The AMRAAM entered service roughly one year after the R-27 and the B model did not take long to enter IOC and high rate production.

What? - the R-27 entered service in 1983 along with the MiG-29, while the AIM-120A entered service in 1991-2 on F-16s and F-15s and in 1993 on the F/A-18C......some ten years after the R-27. 

 

 

On 4/7/2021 at 3:56 PM, Skysurfer said:

Th 27ER wasn't exactly available in the thousands from the start either.

No but the IOC of ~ 1990 often stated for it in western media is nonsense. It came out a little later than the shortburn -27R, but IIRC it was something similar to that of the AIM-120A to AIM-120B - i.e. a matter of a year or two. I think you are confusing it with the R-77, which is contemporary with the AMRAAM.

 

On 4/7/2021 at 3:56 PM, Skysurfer said:

And sure, there was a short time period where the ER was much superior agianst AIM-7 platforms, a design which originated in the 60's.

Yes but the contemparary AIM-7M was nevertheless a very different missile than the initial versions.

On 4/7/2021 at 3:56 PM, Skysurfer said:

The Tomcat and Phoenix had a LONG service history and were ultimately retired because of costs and the fact that after the collapse of the soviet union and advancements in EW and ship based defense systems it was no longer required. This does not change the fact that the Tomcat had the most powerful radar and the longest range A2A missile from the 70's up to the early 2000's. Just the way it was and there is no reason to argue against that. 

MiG-31/Zashlon radar and R-33?

 

 

 

[BlackPixxel]

5 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

And you know this how?

 

Real world manuals and technical descriptions.

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Real world manuals and technical descriptions.

 

Ok, then you also know that your RWR shuts off whenever you have a STT lock?  

[TotenDead]

9 минут назад, Skysurfer сказал:

 

Ok, then you also know that your RWR shuts off whenever you have a STT lock?  

Why don't you rename yourself to Clicheserfer?

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, Seaeagle said:

What? - the R-27 entered service in 1983 along with the MiG-29, while the AIM-120A entered service in 1991-2 on F-16s and F-15s and in 1993 on the F/A-18C......some ten years after the R-27. 

 

 

No but the IOC of ~ 1990 often stated for it in western media is nonsense. It came out a little later than the shortburn -27R, but IIRC it was something similar to that of the AIM-120A to AIM-120B - i.e. a matter of a year or two. I think you are confusing it with the R-77, which is contemporary with the AMRAAM.

 

Yes but the contemparary AIM-7M was nevertheless a very different missile than the initial versions.

MiG-31/Zashlon radar and R-33?

 

 

 

 

All valid points. There was a 2-3 year transitional period around 90-91. However, the R-27ER entered full service and mass scale production only around 87-88. It did not just come "a little later" - it's a known fact and confirmed by both historians and former crews and engineers. The 77 (RVV-AE) never entered service with the RuAF, only the 77-1 did in 2012-14 (RVV-SD for export). The Mig-31/Zaslon and AA-9 Amos combination was indeed an area where there was some sort of parity, if mostly intended to hit large bombers and AWACS, despite initial issues with its radar and datalink it was the first true PESA radar on a fighter/interceptor.

 

5 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

Why don't you rename yourself to Clicheserfer?

 

Why don't you reference real world documents such as weapon employment manuals and talk to people who actually flew these aircraft? There are more than enough reports and combat evaluations out there. Especially once the Germans got their hands on the 29A (9.12). Point is, the Mig-29 radar is inferior to any western BVR platform (apart from the 16A with the APG-66). No one is discounting the 29 by any means in the WVR regime, especially when coupled with the Archer - to which the west only had an answer in the early 2000's technologically. Give credit where credit is due but don't just blindly trust or believe all the claims people make just because they want their favorite national plane to be the best thing in existence. Я бы вам очень посоветовал выучить историю и поговорить с персоналом и лётчиками, которых у нас на форуме есть достаточно.