Mirage F1 project update

[potatoman530]

11 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Mirage F1, Mirage3, and Mig23 (early/late variants), and F4, and an official A4 are my most awaited modules. They fill out the bulk of cold war assets we are missing, And let us do arab israeli wars, iran/iraq, south africa, and if Razbam does a SHAR then the falklands.

Yea this game needs to focus more on cold war aircraft in my opinion.

[Harlikwin]

15 minutes ago, potatoman530 said:

Yea this game needs to focus more on cold war aircraft in my opinion.

 

Yup, its a popular opinion. 

[hi41000]

6 hours ago, potatoman530 said:

Yea this game needs to focus more on cold war aircraft in my opinion.

most of the aircraft we have ingame can be considered coldwar by limiting weapons

hornet with no amraams and aim-9xs is essentially a coldwar hornet

same as the viper too

whilst there are 24 modules that can be used and considered in the cold war era if the mission maker limits ordnance

if the mission maker is lazy and does not limit ordnance then there can be considered 18 modules that are in the cold war

 

there is a total of 10 ww2 modules, and 2 modules that are completely beyond the scope of cold war

 

off of the top of my head there is 8 out of 10 modules that are cold war that are coming eventually that we know about, it jumps up to 18 out of 22 modules if we include razbams plans

Edited July 12, 2021 by hi41000

[Harlikwin]

Question for the Devs about AA weapons for the mirage.

 

Will you guys (or ED) be modeling the Magic 550 (V1) or the 530 or Super530F?

 

I know the spanish one had sidewinders, just curious about these other weapons. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Harlikwin

[hi41000]

15 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Question for the Devs about AA weapons for the mirage.

Will you guys (or ED) be modeling the Magic 550 (V1) or the 530 or Super530F?

I know the spanish one had sidewinders, just curious about these other weapons.

we know at the very least the initial 530 missile, fingers crossed we also get the super530f

pic from 2017

Edited July 12, 2021 by hi41000

[Harlikwin]

2 minutes ago, hi41000 said:

we know at the very least the initial 530 missile, fingers crossed we also get the super530f

pic from 2017

 

 

Thanks, thats good news... I hope we can get some older rear aspect sidewinders/magics for it too. 

[Silver_Dragon]

Spain retreat the 530 missiles on 1987. As air to air missiles, they get AIM-9J and M, as Air to Ground, get GBU-10 and GBU-16 capability. The F-1 purchase to Qatar coming with 530f, but I think never reach to put on service that missile.
https://www.defensa.com/ayer-noticia/los-mirage-f1-de-los-llanos (on spanish).

https://www.microsiervos.com/archivo/aerotrastorno/cazas-ejercito-aire-espaniol-mirage-f1.html

https://es-academic.com/dic.nsf/eswiki/332524

Quote

En cuanto al armamento en España se componía originariamente del misil aire-aire de alcance medio MATRA 530, que fue retirado en 1987 debido a su manifiesta obsolescencia. Con la compra de los aviones quataries se adquirió el misil aire-aire también de medio alcance MATRA Super 530F-1, cuyo alcance máximo era de 35 Km. Asimismo posee capacidad de reconocimiento gracias a la barquilla COR-2. Puede utilizar el pod de perturbación radar Barax, hasta tres barquillas CC-420 con un cañón DEFA 553 de 30mm, el misil aire-aire de corto alcance con guía infra-roja AIM-9 Sidewinder JULI, bombas guiadas por láser GBU-10 y 16, las de racimo Mk20 Rockeye, CBU-100 y BME-330 ya en desuso, así como las clásicas de caída libre Mk-82 y Mk-83 intercambiables por las BR250 y BR500 de EXPAL, tanto en configuración lisa como frenadas por paracaídas.

 

 

[TLTeo]

I've said this a bunch of times, but if they were comfortable with the C-101 carrying the Sea Eagle or BL-755, I'm sure they'll be pretty generous with the F1's loadouts too.

[Bremspropeller]

[cough]

 

Exocet

 

[\cough]

[Harlikwin]

I just want some 1970s era weapons for a 1970s era plane. 

[Sajarov]

Yeah as Silver said, Spain retired the Matra R.530 in 1987. These missiles were bought in 1970 for the Mirage IIIEE fleet.

Super530F were never Introduced in Spanish service. Same with Magic R.550.

But it will be nice to have a the Super530F.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using Tapatalk

[potatoman530]

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

[cough]

 

Exocet

 

[\cough]

The F1Ms Cyrano IVM radar did have anti shipping capability and was compatible with the Exocet missile however Spain never operated this weapon. If they did add it, it would be very cool.

[LCO489]

2 hours ago, Sajarov said:

Yeah as Silver said, Spain retired the Matra R.530 in 1987. These missiles were bought in 1970 for the Mirage IIIEE fleet.

Super530F were never Introduced in Spanish service. Same with Magic R.550.

But it will be nice to have a the Super530F.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using Tapatalk
 

i think it would be the same logic on the recent IRMAV on the harrier, made it available if its capable of using it or exclude i because it was capable but never used. If its capable of using it as its was said the Qatar ones had it when sold to Spain, i hope they use the same conclusion as RB.

Edited July 13, 2021 by LCO489
misspell

[spartan2078]

All I want is to be able to carry french weaponery like the MAGIC, GBUs and why not even Exocet and AS-30L. 

[potatoman530]

I don't think the Spanish versions ever mounted a laser designation pod. But the Iraqi, French and Moroccan versions of the Mirage did have laser designation of some sort. I think the F1EE for Spain does have a laser rangefinder in the nose for CCRP or something like that.   

[TLTeo]

I think the question is less whether Aerges is willing to include stuff, and more whether they can find the documentation necessary to include stuff. Again, reference the C-101.

[Bremspropeller]

18 hours ago, potatoman530 said:

The F1Ms Cyrano IVM radar did have anti shipping capability and was compatible with the Exocet missile however Spain never operated this weapon. If they did add it, it would be very cool.

 

It would!

I'm thinking mostly about mission-building, rather than die-hard historical accuracy here. Unless Aerges would manage to build the iraqi EQ-5 or EQ-6 versions (not sure if those had an Agave instead of the Cyrano, I'll have to check my bookshelve).

 

Also, the CR and CT versions would rock.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[FlankerKiller]

On 7/12/2021 at 10:47 AM, potatoman530 said:

Yea this game needs to focus more on cold war aircraft in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. 

[Snappy]

On 7/12/2021 at 8:56 PM, hi41000 said:

most of the aircraft we have ingame can be considered coldwar by limiting weapons

hornet with no amraams and aim-9xs is essentially a coldwar hornet

same as the viper too

whilst there are 24 modules that can be used and considered in the cold war era if the mission maker limits ordnance

if the mission maker is lazy and does not limit ordnance then there can be considered 18 modules that are in the cold war

 

there is a total of 10 ww2 modules, and 2 modules that are completely beyond the scope of cold war

 

off of the top of my head there is 8 out of 10 modules that are cold war that are coming eventually that we know about, it jumps up to 18 out of 22 modules if we include razbams plans

 

 

Not really in case of the F-18/16.Avionics  are still way too modern&much more capable in regards to detection and situational awareness , Cold war Hornet would also ve have much less performance , since the uprated engines came later.

They make for poor stand-ins of their cold war variants if you ask me. Better to leave them out.

But with the various CW planes in development, the CW era should become more interesting.

 

Regards,

 

 Snappy 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Snappy

[kseremak]

3 hours ago, Snappy said:

Not really in case of the F-18/16.Avionics  are still way too modern&much more capable in regards to detection and situational awareness , Cold war Hornet would also ve have much less performance , since the uprated engines came later.

They make for poor stand-ins of their cold war variants if you ask me. Better to leave them out.

But with the various CW planes in development, the CW era should become more interesting.

 

Regards,

 

 Snappy 

 

Yes, unfortunately Hornet has JHMCS, SA Page with Link16, stronger engines, color DDIs and probably many other less important things, impossible to remove. I'm not even mentioning modern weapon and pods because this could be restricted. Does cold war Hornet, even late '80s Charlie, have NCTR IFF?

Maybe ED could make some earlier Lot later on, just remove a few components, because right now it would be definitely too modern for the cold car scenarios even without some weapon types like AIM-120, 9X or GPS munitions.

 

EDIT. I realised when we will have many other cold war modules in DCS which are now during developement this will be far more important than it is right now. I.e. MiG-29 9.12 vs F/A-18A. Original F/A-18A was praised by the pilots as being even better for BFM and nose authority.

Edited July 14, 2021 by kseremak

[jojo]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

It would!

I'm thinking mostly about mission-building, rather than die-hard historical accuracy here. Unless Aerges would manage to build the iraqi EQ-5 or EQ-6 versions (not sure if those had an Agave instead of the Cyrano, I'll have to check my bookshelve).

 

Also, the CR and CT versions would rock.

 

 

No Mirage F1 was ever fitted with Agave radar, this is urban legend.

Iraqi Mirage F1 using Exocet did so with Cyrano IV radar.

 

Likewise, Mirage 50EV dedicated to Exocet mission was practically a Mirage F1 cockpit and avionics bolted onto Mirage III airframe.

It did used Cyrano IV radar.

 

 

The main advantage of the Agave is that it was small enough to fit inside Super Etendard, if you could use bigger radar, all the better.

[Harlikwin]

4 hours ago, kseremak said:

 

Yes, unfortunately Hornet has JHMCS, SA Page with Link16, stronger engines, color DDIs and probably many other less important things, impossible to remove. I'm not even mentioning modern weapon and pods because this could be restricted. Does cold war Hornet, even late '80s Charlie, have NCTR IFF?

Maybe ED could make some earlier Lot later on, just remove a few components, because right now it would be definitely too modern for the cold car scenarios even without some weapon types like AIM-120, 9X or GPS munitions.

 

EDIT. I realised when we will have many other cold war modules in DCS which are now during developement this will be far more important than it is right now. I.e. MiG-29 9.12 vs F/A-18A. Original F/A-18A was praised by the pilots as being even better for BFM and nose authority.

 

 

Yeah, people keep trying to variously disable stuff on the modern era planes to "simulate" older planes. It kinda works offline if you are honest. It doesn't really work online with MP servers cuz there is always a guy that can find a way around it. We had a server where certain systems were damaged on start to replicate lower capability. And lo what do you see when people start up on the server the first time, yup they do a repair, which gives them the 2005 era bird. At least we don't have actual MSI on the current hornet, which would make it even less apropos to the 80's.

 

I think if Ed were to offer an "earlier" hornet or viper it would sell well. I mean you are mostly removing systems and weapons, maybe the engines change to crappier ones as well. Something like a F18A would be a bit more complex due to different radar and such (though, lets be honest ED mostly gave as an APG-65, anyway as certain parts of the 73 are missing). And then they'd have to do a older TGP like nite-hawk. Though to be fair the 18A would be pretty basic, just iron weapons aside from the walleye, not sure if it could even use Mavs (probably?). Same thing for a F16A, those were basic as you get.  

 

The big thing with modern fighters are SA tools and standoff weapons and sensors, in DCS you can kind of remove the weapons, but you can't remove the SA or sensor stuff. 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Harlikwin

[hi41000]

6 hours ago, kseremak said:

 

Yes, unfortunately Hornet has JHMCS, SA Page with Link16, stronger engines, color DDIs and probably many other less important things, impossible to remove. I'm not even mentioning modern weapon and pods because this could be restricted. Does cold war Hornet, even late '80s Charlie, have NCTR IFF?

Maybe ED could make some earlier Lot later on, just remove a few components, because right now it would be definitely too modern for the cold car scenarios even without some weapon types like AIM-120, 9X or GPS munitions.

 

EDIT. I realised when we will have many other cold war modules in DCS which are now during developement this will be far more important than it is right now. I.e. MiG-29 9.12 vs F/A-18A. Original F/A-18A was praised by the pilots as being even better for BFM and nose authority.

 

the 80s charlie hornet likely would have nctr, infact the mirage 2000c originally got its nctr in the 80s

a SA page with link 16, sure link 16 was not a thing in the 80s, but the us did use datalink, the tomcat uses link 4 for example, its not unbelievable that the hornet used link 4a originally.

stronger engines we can't do much about

Honestly the major thing is the jhmcs, which in the mission editor we can disable, problem is though they can tell ground crew to put it back on

Edited July 15, 2021 by hi41000

[Harlikwin]

2 hours ago, hi41000 said:

the 80s charlie hornet likely would have nctr, infact the mirage 2000c originally got its nctr in the 80s

a SA page with link 16, sure link 16 was not a thing in the 80s, but the us did use datalink, the tomcat uses link 4 for example, its not unbelievable that the hornet used link 4a originally.

stronger engines we can't do much about

Honestly the major thing is the jhmcs, which in the mission editor we can disable, problem is though they can tell ground crew to put it back on

 

 

I mean there is NO GOOD way to turn the ED hornet into a 90's hornet much less an F18A. Thats a fact. 

 

Link4 might work. But its not gonna work like you think it might. Even Link16  is still way too perfect in DCS, anyone wanna place bets on update rates? How easy it is to Jam? I mean DCS AWACS implementations don't model any of the real world limitations of those radars... Anyone wanna guess at what the notch gate on those is? Here's a hint, worse than mr. F14...

 

Then there are all the other issues with weapons, lack of GPS, worse INS, and so forth on the 18A. I mean if you want the 18A experience dial back to when the 18 was released by ED and its kinda close, but still not really. Of course you can't go back since everything has been added back.

 

 

The fundamental problem ED has is that it works in a vacuum. Look at the radars, detection ranges are joke "relatively" speaking. Anyone wanna raise their hand and say a KJL-7 is outranging and F15C radar? ED seriously needs to have a "reality check/coherence manager" that says, wait, you claim your radar A is better than radar B? send proof plz, and I don't mean from players, if a Dev can't order rank their radar into the existing DCS framework they shouldn't get a license IMO. And there needs to be rank ordered list of radars that makes some sense. Same for every other sensor in game. 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Harlikwin

[TLTeo]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

I mean there is NO GOOD way to turn the ED hornet into a 90's hornet much less an F18A. Thats a fact. 

Yep, and an -A model Viper is even worse given that the cockpit is completely different, so you need to re-do several systems, most of the avionics, art, plus FM (because analog vs digital flight control system, different weight, less thrust etc). People acting like "oh but the 3d model is there and the aircraft is the same, just a few systems" don't really know what they are talking about.

 

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

The fundamental problem ED has is that it works in a vacuum

This is true to some extent, but to be honest, DCS is a relatively unrealistic environment (for example, because you're either flying with dumb AIs or humans who have no idea of what they are doing) that it's stopped bugging me as much as it used to. Not having the right AWACS radar Doppler limits or whatever isn't nearly as big of a deal as my wingman not saying a single thing during ACM or BFM other than "fox 3! ejecting!".

Edited July 15, 2021 by TLTeo