JDAMs on the Cat

[Sukboi]

I was wondering what sort of an upgrade we would need to receive JDAMs on the existing F-14B?

[DD_Fenrir]

No. The upgrades to the systems that allowed JDAM to be used were concurrent with the RIO cockpit display upgrades; PTIDS et al. 

 

Much of the information on these systems is still classified and whilst Heatblur have considered this as option they say the lack of information prohibits its development.

 

So F-14B (U) or F-14D and the JDAM functionality are a no go. Currently.

Edited January 29, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Skysurfer]

No.

[BreaKKer]

12 hours ago, Sukboi said:

I was wondering what sort of an upgrade we would need to receive JDAMs on the existing F-14B?

Well a PTID, the actual PTID software update that includes the JDAM, the LANTIRN software update for the JDAM, CDU, EGI, PMDIG, AWG-15H fire control set, the new mission computer, and some other things.

Edited January 29, 2021 by BreaKKer

[Xeno426]

16 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Much of the information on these systems is still classified and whilst Heatblur have considered this as option they say the lack of information prohibits its development.

Still classified? Quite odd, considering the systems needed for the A-10C and F/A-18C seem available enough to put them into those modules.
What about the information is so important that they remain classified, I wonder.

[Naquaii]

4 hours ago, Xeno426 said:

Still classified? Quite odd, considering the systems needed for the A-10C and F/A-18C seem available enough to put them into those modules.
What about the information is so important that they remain classified, I wonder.

 

It's not about the JDAM itself but the classified parts of the F-14 manuals. To have the JDAMs on the F-14 we'd need the very late F-14B upgrade which contains the sparrowhawk and PTID amongst other things and that information is still not available.

[Xeno426]

Hmm, still odd compared to the other aircraft we're getting. Is that upgrade newer than the block 20 Hornets we already have? I'm not familiar with the timelines involved.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Xeno426

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, Xeno426 said:

Hmm, still odd compared to the other aircraft we're getting. Is that upgrade newer than the block 20 Hornets we already have? I'm not familiar with the timelines involved.

 

 

It being newer or older has no impact on classification levels or documentation availability. The Hornet and Viper were also widely exported

[Swordsman422]

There is documentation pertaining to the PTID menus that are still classified to make life hard for Iran's F-14 fleet. The PTID would be required to program and deliver the JDAM. They could just copy the Hornet MFD menus, but Heatblur is classy enough not to just guess at what the systems looked like and how it worked. If they can't do it right, they'd rather not do it at all.

[Blaze1]

Are such documents really classified?  These systems are described in the TACMAN which is classified, therefore obtaining the TACMAN isn't possible.  Detailed systems descriptions can also be found in unclassified maintenance manuals, systems manuals and pilot/RIO training guides, however these may have export restrictions etc.

[TLTeo]

Yes, it really is classified, HB have literally stated that in this thread.

[Blaze1]

2 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Yes, it really is classified, HB have literally stated that in this thread.

I have my doubts TLTeo.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Blaze1

[Skysurfer]

23 minutes ago, Blaze1 said:

I have my doubts TLTeo.

 

 

Then go send HB all the documentation you have, maybe they'll change their mind.  

[Uxi]

18 hours ago, Swordsman422 said:

There is documentation pertaining to the PTID menus that are still classified to make life hard for Iran's F-14 fleet. 

That sounds quite... implausible. Their 50 year old early A have no MFD and are entirely analog. Later block F-14A even 135-GR would be more achievable,  though their difficulties with the Hawk, etc make even that daunting.  Being able to do something much more advanced with JDAM based on menu options doesn't sound believable. They would have add the equivalent of the 1553B bus interface, GPS interoperability....

 

I thought HB references were that the material wasn't classified as much as not available as in no one bothered to keep the more detailed information or thought it would be useful decades after retirement of the fleet. 

 

 

[Blaze1]

51 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

 

Then go send HB all the documentation you have, maybe they'll change their mind.  

I'd need to get the docs first, then we'd talk.

 

32 minutes ago, Uxi said:

I thought HB references were that the material wasn't classified as much as not available as in no one bothered to keep the more detailed information or thought it would be useful decades after retirement of the fleet. 

 

 

This is my thinking also Uxi.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Blaze1

[AH_Solid_Snake]

Whether the manuals went in the shredder because they are classified or the bin because nobody cared to keep them the result is the same, no documentation, no module.

 

Not every decision the DoD took regarding the F-14 and the Iran connection could be classed as completely rational and there was definitely some politicking around the Super Hornet, Dick Cheney and Iran.

 

Did they really need to shred all those F-14s when sending all other aircraft to the boneyard has been sufficient? Did they really need Grumman to destroy as much documentation and tooling as possible for a 40 year old aircraft to keep it out of the Iranians hands? Did they need to make sure the Super Hornet vs F-14 story was dead and buried? 

 

I suspect answers to all these questions won't be particularly forthcoming.

[Rick50]

 

Sometimes, the "hidden politics" that are never documented, but spoken in hushed tones before and after meetings, are the reason why certain things happen. As super spy Solid Snake suggests, this may well be an example of that. Sometimes the real world is not as straightforward and logical as we'd like!

[IronMike]

Let's just try to keep politics out of here, but calling Cheney a Dick with a major D, is of course very accurate.

[BreaKKer]

Let's gaze upon some munitions that will never touch the belly of the F-14 in DCS for a long time without mods. Come back in 10 years, and check to see if the docs are unclassified yet.

[Swordsman422]

18 hours ago, Uxi said:

That sounds quite... implausible. Their 50 year old early A have no MFD and are entirely analog. Later block F-14A even 135-GR would be more achievable,  though their difficulties with the Hawk, etc make even that daunting.  Being able to do something much more advanced with JDAM based on menu options doesn't sound believable. They would have add the equivalent of the 1553B bus interface, GPS interoperability....

 

I thought HB references were that the material wasn't classified as much as not available as in no one bothered to keep the more detailed information or thought it would be useful decades after retirement of the fleet. 

 

 

From my understanding anything that might benefit Iran in upgrading their fleet is non-distributable, regardless of how silly it might seem. Not that it actually keeps them from performing upgrades of any kind, but it's stubborn noncooperation and I never underestimate the willful stupidity of my own government with foreign relations, regardless of the party in control. Prime example, I have a regulator used on LOX systems I cannot legally sell to a collector outside the US because it might find its way onto Iranian Tomcats or Phantoms. Doesn't prevent me from selling it to someone here who might try to smuggle it out, but if I get caught trying to sell it overseas I might face prison time.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Swordsman422

[QuiGon]

23 hours ago, Blaze1 said:

I'd need to get the docs first, then we'd talk.

 

Now you know how Heatblur feels about this

Edited February 2, 2021 by QuiGon

[Blaze1]

1 minute ago, QuiGon said:

 

Know you know how Heatblur feels about this

Over the moon that they'd be able to start developing an F14D?

[BreaKKer]

3 hours ago, Blaze1 said:

Over the moon that they'd be able to start developing an F14D?

Over the moon is an understatement. Over Saturn is more like it

[Uxi]

13 hours ago, Swordsman422 said:

From my understanding anything that might benefit Iran in upgrading their fleet is non-distributable, regardless of how silly it might seem. Not that it actually keeps them from performing upgrades of any kind, but it's stubborn noncooperation and I never underestimate the willful stupidity of my own government with foreign relations, regardless of the party in control. Prime example, I have a regulator used on LOX systems I cannot legally sell to a collector outside the US because it might find its way onto Iranian Tomcats or Phantoms. Doesn't prevent me from selling it to someone here who might try to smuggle it out, but if I get caught trying to sell it overseas I might face prison time.

 

 

Regular ITAR covers that.  I can't sell most of the parts or optics from my ARs or plate carrier or gas mask, etc anywhere overseas either, regardless of particular sanctions on Iran.  I'm mostly saying they would find the material we already have in 135-GR more practically useful to their block 95s.

 

Not that we should expect rational policy from government.

[Uxi]

19 hours ago, IronMike said:

Let's just try to keep politics out of here, but calling Cheney a Dick with a major D, is of course very accurate.

 

Interestingly enough it appears the opposition to F-14D from DoD was much deeper.  Interesting doc here:

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a282162.pdf

By late 1988, opposition to the F-14D program began to emerge in the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD). The opposition was led by David Chu, the Assistant secretary of Defense for Program Analysis and EValuation (PA&E). The influence of the PA&E office within the OSD had grown significantly during the budget-conscious years of the late 1980's. As a member of the Defense Resources and Planning Board (DRPB) and the Defense Acquisition Board (DAB), the two primary decision-making forums for the OSD, Chu was in a powerful position to influence acquisition decisions. With the defense budget continuing to decrease in terms of real growth, Chu's recommendations to cut waste and eliminate uneconomical programs gathered support.   Chu was opposed. to new F-14D production. He believed that in an attempt to keep the Grumman production line open, DoD was deliberately buying aircraft in low quantities.  The effect of this policy was to drive up the unit cost of each aircraft. Chu estimated that the 12 F-14D aircraft scheduled for production in FY 89 would cost the government nearly $75 million each. This cost was three times greater than the $23 million price paid for the Navy's other carrier-based fighter, the F/A-18 Hornet.

 

Cheney's public arguments at the time appear to be paraphrased from Chu.  Note also, the argument was contingent on NATF, though:

 

with the Navy scheduled to receive an aircraft-carrier version of the Air Farce's Advanced Tactical Fighter (NATF) by the year 2000, Chu also cautioned against procuring airframe life that would not be used. A newly built F-14D with an estimated 25-30 year lifespan, would be replaced by the NATF long before its airframe fatigue life had expired. A remanufactured F-14D with an expected 10-15 year lifespan; however, would phase out nicely with the arrival of NATF.

 

And later:

 

On 9 January 1989, just prior to leaving office, President Reagan submitted his FY 90 budget to Congress. Included in his request was $1.3 billion for 12 new F-14Ds and six remanufactured F-14As (Ref. 36:p. 36]. After Bush succeeded Reagan later that month, he announced deep spending cuts and requested agencies to resubmit their FY 90 budgets. For the Department of Defense, this meant a $10 billion budget reduction. For Chu, the budget resubmission offered a golden opportunity to kill new F-14D production. He found an ally in the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology (USD(A&T)), John Costello, who had also targeted low-volume purchases for termination. On 10 April 1989, the DRPB decided to kill new F-14D production. Two weeks later, the SECDEF, Richard Cheney, announced the termination decision in testimony before the HASC.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Uxi