Fulda gap multiple periods

[upyr1]

I think this would be an obvious map. I figure we could have 3 or 4 variants.  One would be early cold war, for the F-51, F-86 and MiG-15. Another around 1965 for the MiG-19 and one in the 1970s for the F-5 and MiG-21 BIS and may be something in the 1980s for flaming cliffs. 

[Northstar98]

Absolutely, I'd love a northern/central Germany map circa 70s/80s, it's one of the few possible map choices that have RL REDFOR and BLUFOR airbases on the same map; and even better they're bases that our current aircraft were historically based at and already have the liveries for.

 

Spangdahlem AB: A-10A, A-10C (both of them) and F-16C all have an appropriate livery.

Damgarten AB: MiG-29S has an appropriate livery.

Marxwalde/Neuhardenberg AB: MiG-21bis has an appropriate livery for.

 

As well as there being GDR liveries for the MiG-15bis and L-39C. The Mi-24P should also get one.

 

It's the perfect place for a few sought after aircraft; namely the Tornado IDS and the F-4 Phantom II (though the RAF F-4M and German F-4F). The Typhoon also would fit on the map, being based at Wittmundhafen (which formerly based the F-4F and F-104G) and Rostock-Laage (a former MiG-29G and F-4 airbase).

 

So much potential, as well as having real world, historical value; for me it is a perfect map for DCS. The only issue is that it would be densely populated with objects and airfields, and would be very large if you want to get the main BLUFOR and REDFOR airbases.

 

I think having multiple variants for multiple periods is too much of a stretch though; the map I've had a go at in Google Earth is already very big.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Northstar98

[Hodo]

Yes please!!!  With the possibility of the F4 vs Mig-21.  Or even Bf-109 over germany.

 

So many options.

[bies]

The best and most moody map possible.

 

Every tactical plane of US, USSR, GB, France, etc. was designed with parameters optimised to operate on this particular region. From MiG-15 or Sabre, through centaury serie, F-15, F-16, Mirages, EE Lightings, all MiGs 17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 up to YF-22.

 

Multiple periods may be a stretch (still welcome) but 1970s/1980s woul be perfect:

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by bies

[Northstar98]

2 minutes ago, bies said:

The best and most moody map possible.

 

Every tactical plane of US, USSR, GB, France, etc. was designed with parameters optimised to operate on this particular region. From MiG-15 or Sabre to YF-22.

 

Multiple periods may be a stretch (still welcome) but 1970s/1980s woul be perfect.

 

Agreed!

[upyr1]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:16 PM, bies said:

The best and most moody map possible.

 

Every tactical plane of US, USSR, GB, France, etc. was designed with parameters optimised to operate on this particular region. From MiG-15 or Sabre, through centaury serie, F-15, F-16, Mirages, EE Lightings, all MiGs 17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 up to YF-22.

 

Multiple periods may be a stretch (still welcome) but 1970s/1980s woul be perfect.

 

You hit the reason I think this theater should be covered in multiple eras- it was expected to be a major World War III battleground through out the whole cold war. If I am not wrong it looks like the Marian's will be released in a World War II and a modern flavor with the map being loaded based on the year. If that is the case then that needs to be added to others and this would be a great map to do it with. I figure since it would be huge the best thing to do would be to sell the different eras as separate maps. The biggest difference would be the towns and construction. So I would assume the late cold war would be the most complex so that should be released first. When a play buys it their first map might be $50 and the additional eras might be $25 

[Fangs Out]

Also, it gives a reason to add the Eurocom livery for USAF planes (F-4,A-10, etc)

[QuiGon]

A Fulda Gap map would definitely be a blast, but why different variants of the same map? There hasn't changed much in that region between 1965 and 1980 that would warrant different variants.

Edited February 11, 2021 by QuiGon

[rkk01]

Can’t say I’m particularly interested..

(at the mo  )

 

Certainly, Fulda Gap was the high profile stand off during the Cold War - but not necessarily a great match for the current plane set.  Like the Mig 29 discussion, 80s would work well, especially with additional assets like the incoming Harrier GR3 and Mig 23; and wished for F4, F104, Tornado and Jaguar...

 

Good map for a tank battle though - Hind v Cobra???  (Or earliest Apache)

 

German reunification and eastwards expansion of NATO renders Fulda much less important setting for current blue air

 

N Norway (North Cape / Finnmark), NW Russia, Barents Sea and down the Norwegian coast is much more interesting  

Strategically important map from WW2 to current day. NATO planned and exercised for Soviet annexation of N Norway on the assumption that Soviet navy needed to maintain access to Atlantic to prevent NATO resupply. Maritime element bring in mire planned (and announced) assets than relevant for Fulda

 

[bies]

11 hours ago, rkk01 said:

German reunification and eastwards expansion of NATO renders Fulda much less important setting for current blue air

 

You are right, for today scenarios obviously not. 

 

Russia lost ~80% of it's tanks, aircrafts, infantry force with dissolution of the Soviet Union, and lost whole WARPAC, so obviously an all out war is impossible.

 

WARPAC had 14000 combat aircrafts! With USSR alone having 11500.

Today Russia has ~1500-1600... similar with tanks and infantry, navy... some 1/8th of it's former force remained, so obviously we can't expect good ol' - all out invasion like in Cold War.

 

It's going to be mostly Cold War map, yes. But it's true for every map - being perfect for one specific timeframe and "kinda works in others."

 

Fulda Gap is perfect for HUGE timeframe since 1947 to 1989.

MiG-15, F-86 Sabre, MiG-19, F-5E, C-101, MiG-21bis, L-39, Mirage 2000, Huey, Mi-8, Gazelle, F-14 Tomcat, AJS-37 Viggen,

(also FC3 - Su-27S, F-15C, Su-25, A-10A)

and also for being developed Mi-24P, A-7E Corsair, A-6E Intruder, MiG-23MLA, MiG-29A, F-8J Crusader Mirage F.1, Bo-105, F-4E.

 

Also nearly all ground assets, all SAM systems, nearly all AI aircrafts which are in DCS are from late Cold War timeframe and with some Cold War map like Fulda Gap we can create realistic coherent environment in Dynamic Campaign which is coming.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by bies

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, rkk01 said:

Can’t say I’m particularly interested..

(at the mo  )

 

Certainly, Fulda Gap was the high profile stand off during the Cold War - but not necessarily a great match for the current plane set.  Like the Mig 29 discussion, 80s would work well, especially with additional assets like the incoming Harrier GR3 and Mig 23; and wished for F4, F104, Tornado and Jaguar...

 

It's good for the Mirage 2000C, the Viggen isn't that far away. You could park a carrier close to the coast for the Tomcat. It is a perfect Cold War map.

 

Of course we're missing plenty of aircraft and assets - but that's common for basically every map except WWII and the Caucasus...

 

As far as modern aircraft, they've actually got liveries for an airbase in Germany - namely Spangdahlem air base (A-10A/C and F-16CM). The MiG-29S has a Damgarten livery, there's a few other aircraft that have appropriate liveries.

 

For modern day, well the Typhoon is based there.

 

Quote

Good map for a tank battle though - Hind v Cobra???  (Or earliest Apache)

 

*Perfect map for ground warfare (if it could be done).

 

The Mi-24P was operated by the GDR.

 

Quote

German reunification and eastwards expansion of NATO renders Fulda much less important setting for current blue air

 

Well, at least they're actually based there, like the aforementioned A-10 and F-16.

 

42 minutes ago, bies said:

For today scenarios obviously not. 

 

Russia lost ~80% of it's tanks and aircrafts with dissolution of the Soviet Union, and whole WARPAC so obviously all out war is impossible.

 

WARPAC had 14000 combat aircrafts! With USSR alone 11500. Russia has ~1500-1600, similar with tanks and infantry... so obviously we can't expect all out invasion.

 

It's going to be a Cold War map. But it's true for every map - being perfect for one specific timeframe and can "kinda works in others."

 

Fulda Gap is perfect for HUGE timeframe since 1947 to 1989.

MiG-15, F-86 Sabre, MiG-19, F-5E, C-101, MiG-21bis, L-39, Mirage 2000, Huey, Mi-8, Gazelle

(also FC3 - Su-27S, F-15C, Su-25, A-10A)

and also being developed Mi-24P, A-7E Corsair, A-6E Intruder, MiG-23MLA, MiG-29A, Mirage F.1, Bo-105, F-4E.

 

Also nearly all ground assets, all SAM systems, nearly all AI aircrafts are from Cold Wat timeframe and can create realistic coherent environment in Dynamic Campaign which is coming.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I can't think of a single other map that has so many BLUFOR and REDFOR airbases on the same map, that was one of the hottest places of the Cold War between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

 

The only issue with the map, is that it's very populated and very large (especially if you wanted to do northern/central Germany, unfortunately the bases are rather spread out), it's also the perfect place for such a wide variety of assets and aircraft - we already have a fairly comprehensive set (of course there's still a fair bit missing but there's plenty to make a doable scenario).

Edited February 11, 2021 by Northstar98

[rkk01]

For anyone interested in the NATO / Warsaw Pact gone hot in Germany, then “Team Yankee” is worth a read for a ground view perspective

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by rkk01

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, rkk01 said:

For anyone interested in the NATO / Warsaw Pact gone hot in Germany, then “Team Yankee” is worth a read for a ground view perspective

 

It's on my to-read list for quite some time (alongside "The War That Never Was"). I guess it's time to read it

[upyr1]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:05 AM, QuiGon said:

A Fulda Gap map would definitely be a blast, but why different variants of the same map? There hasn't changed much in that region between 1965 and 1980 that would warrant different variants.

 

I'd like a World War II or Early Cold war version of the map. The only difference between the maps would be construction but it would be nice to see it change based on the mission's start date

[rkk01]

Re WW2, wasn’t Germany pretty much on its knees when the US drive through?

 

Total air superiority at a tactical level and what resources the Luftwaffe could put up directed at the daylight bombing campaign 

[Northstar98]

Personally I think the best period for this map is somewhere around the early 70s to mid 80s.

 

The main thing I'm going for is Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising style scenarios or alternatively a higher fidelity version of SF2:EU/NA

Edited February 12, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fangs Out]

This and Vietnam is what I want DCS to work on

[QuiGon]

14 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Personally I think the best period for this map is somewhere around the early 70s to mid 80s.

 

The main thing I'm going for is Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising style scenarios or alternatively a higher fidelity version of SF2:EU/NA

 

This!

 

  

17 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I'd like a World War II or Early Cold war version of the map.

 

There was barely any action in this region in WW2, as Germany was about to surrender at the time when the allies reached this area.

Edited February 13, 2021 by QuiGon

[upyr1]

18 hours ago, rkk01 said:

Re WW2, wasn’t Germany pretty much on its knees when the US drive through?

 

Total air superiority at a tactical level and what resources the Luftwaffe could put up directed at the daylight bombing campaign 

The region didn't see much actin in World War II however it was identified as a potential World War III battleground in 1945 at the very start of the Cold War. There were probably plans to launch operation unthinkable there. Anyhow At the bare minimum I would like to see a version for 1950 and I suspect it that would be closer to World War II than later maps. All we need are some World War II/ Early cold War assets for the Red For. We really need a good theater for the F-86 and MiG-15. 

 

[QuiGon]

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The region didn't see much actin in World War II however it was identified as a potential World War III battleground in 1945 at the very start of the Cold War. There were probably plans to launch operation unthinkable there. Anyhow At the bare minimum I would like to see a version for 1950 and I suspect it that would be closer to World War II than later maps. All we need are some World War II/ Early cold War assets for the Red For. We really need a good theater for the F-86 and MiG-15.

 

I see and yeah, the area would fit an Early Cold War setting as well, although we don't have much aircraft from that era in DCS.

Edited February 13, 2021 by QuiGon

[upyr1]

Just now, QuiGon said:

 

I see and yeah, the area would fit an Early Cold War setting as well, although we don't have much aircraft from that era in DCS.

 

We need more early cold war assets in general. We might not have the right versions but some of the World War II planes and assets would work. The USAF had the F-51 and F-47, the Commonwealth retired the Spitfire in the early 1950s and the BF-109 was built and flown by Czechoslovakia as the Avia S-199. We need some Red For ground assets and more aircraft  for both sides especially jets and helicopters.