How will a 2 man cockpit be run in single player?

[silent one]

Is there anything on crewing in singe player. Since I really want this chopper, I worry about how the 2 crew roles will be run.   Back in the day Gunship had you giving verbal orders to the pilot from the gunner seat. eg "Pop up. "   when in hover. I think I read they wernt going to use a system like in F14. So what can they use?   Hopefully itll be something I can integrate with my Vaicom / voiceattack.   Since they are talking about early access by christmas they must be working on something now.   Anyone know what? 

[Sryan]

You can actually give orders to an AI from either seat in the F-14. It's just so that the RIO AI is much more sophisticated than the pilot AI. There's a lot you can do from the gunner seat including flying the thing. In the Huey, you can give some relatively simple flying commands when manning a weapon station yourself. In the Gazelle, you can make an AI pilot hold a hover but still control the collective yourself to control a pop-up. I know they are working on a sophisticated AI for the gunner. At least they showed us so for the Hind. I don't know if anything is in the works for the pilot.

[26-J39]

2 hours ago, silent one said:

I think I read they wernt going to use a system like in F14. So what can they use?

You may have been given the wrong impression.   ED are making their own AI for MI-24 & AH-64.    Some folks suggested to use Heatblur's Jester but ED are opting to build there own system, which makes much more sense.

[Morrov]

They created a nice and sophisticated AI for both seats for the upcoming Hind.
I assume they'll do a similar thing for the Apache too.

[Focha]

On 2/28/2021 at 7:32 AM, Morrov said:

They created a nice and sophisticated AI for both seats for the upcoming Hind.
I assume they'll do a similar thing for the Apache too.

Where can one find more information on this?

[Morrov]

3 hours ago, Focha said:

Where can one find more information on this?

Take a look at this interview, they talk about the AI.

[Crptalk]

I really hope ED adds a TADS page for the pilot and allows the pilot to slew the TADS, fire laser, etc. No matter how advanced the AI is, there's going to be times when I'm looking at a target and the AI can't see it. And then there will be times where the AI will be all knowing and see everything long before an actual human would. This simply are limitations of current simulator AI tech.

[S. Low]

15 hours ago, Crptalk said:

I really hope ED adds a TADS page for the pilot and allows the pilot to slew the TADS, fire laser, etc. No matter how advanced the AI is, there's going to be times when I'm looking at a target and the AI can't see it. And then there will be times where the AI will be all knowing and see everything long before an actual human would. This simply are limitations of current simulator AI tech.

Switch to gunners seat and put ai pilot on hover or orbit

[MrReynolds]

For me I'm hoping something like (if I remember rightly) Enemy Engaged.

 

One. Single. Button.......to simply swap seats. 

 

No change in gameplay at all, except a different set of instruments.  You could fly, engage, whatever.

 

Navigate in the back seat, hit the button and you're in the front, all with instruments set up ready to engage- but you could fly the helicopter all the same.  

 

I don't have the Tomcat so have no experience of a copilot, but I like to try and fly and engage all at the same time.  Just that little more challenge

[DaemonPhobos]

En 18/3/2021 a las 18:02, Crptalk dijo:

I really hope ED adds a TADS page for the pilot and allows the pilot to slew the TADS, fire laser, etc. No matter how advanced the AI is, there's going to be times when I'm looking at a target and the AI can't see it. And then there will be times where the AI will be all knowing and see everything long before an actual human would. This simply are limitations of current simulator AI tech.

 

Technically, the pilot can see TADS and PNVS underlays behind every MPD page in green or white color, except the FCR page and the TSD when the map function is active.

That said, In real life there is no way to slew the tads from the pilot position since he has no manual tracker switch, leaving aside the link function.

A manual slew from the pilot position would be unrealistic, it would be easier to switch to CPG.

Any situation that requires you to pilot the aircraft around won't allow you to be accurate aiming with the TADS anyway.

[Crptalk]

10 minutes ago, DaemonPhobos said:

 

Technically, the pilot can see TADS and PNVS underlays behind every MPD page in green or white color, except the FCR page and the TSD when the map function is active.

That said, In real life there is no way to slew the tads from the pilot position since he has no manual tracker switch, leaving aside the link function.

A manual slew from the pilot position would be unrealistic, it would be easier to switch to CPG.

Any situation that requires you to pilot the aircraft around won't allow you to be accurate aiming with the TADS anyway.

That's why I mentioned the TADS page.

[DaemonPhobos]

Yup, I understand it would be useful.

But it would be pretty much creating a fantasy page.

Actual TADS control an display can only be done with the TEDAC display and grips, there are no MPD pages for TADS even for the gunner, only repeater underlays that provide video feed behind normal MPD symbology, so you wouldn't be able to press the bezel button options (AZ/EL, freeze, etc ) from an MPD.

I think that an optional slew option for the pilot may be somewhat acceptable.

But it wouldn't make sense, the gunner can also pilot the aircraft by himself.

 

[S. Low]

It’s been awhile since I’ve fiddled around with apaches so I’ve forgotten the differences in these systems, but it’s my understanding that the pilot can fire rockets; can slew, zoom, and fire the m230; can fire the hellfire L radar lock variant( I think it’s the radar lock one?); can fire the hellfire K laser designate variant.

 

The pilot cannot use the targeting system to precisely self laze for the K. 
 

There’s another sim out there with an Apache and you can put an AI in the front seat. It has what seems to me a very simplistic AI targeting system where you bring up a menu of available targets that shows everything within the sensor limits of the aircraft along with ranges to help you differentiate similar threats. You select a target and the AI lazes it. Then you can fire or command the ai to fire. Like I said it’s simple but it worked fairly well.

 

CasmoTV was an Apache pilot and he’s mentioned in one of his videos you can’t really run the Apache from one seat and be combat effective. I 100% believe that in a real life situation, but from a sim standpoint I don’t see a problem with having an intuitive and simple AI in the front seat. Then if you absolutely need to look through the sensors yourself laze a building or PID a target, just come to a hover and swap to the gunners seat.

 

The jester ai is a really great tool that lets you get a lot of out of the f14 that I guarantee most people would say would be impossible without a human rio. Jester ai isn’t perfect and will frustrate you with seemingly simple tasks like getting an STT lock on a bandit you both see on the repeater right in front of you: “Sorry, can’t do that! No can do!” Jester he’s right there!! Lol.
 

Regardless, jester gets a lot done with a very intuitive command wheel on what I assume is a far more complicated set of tasks: radar scanning, interpretation, and manipulation; visual out of cockpit identification; RWR readings; navigation and radio manipulation; bomb settings.

 

My 2 cents and the TL;DR version is, based on my experience with another Apache sim and the f14 module, I don’t see any reason to worry about either pilot controls of weapons or gunner seat ai.

[vigilante87]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

It’s been awhile since I’ve fiddled around with apaches so I’ve forgotten the differences in these systems, but it’s my understanding that the pilot can fire rockets; can slew, zoom, and fire the m230; can fire the hellfire L radar lock variant( I think it’s the radar lock one?); can fire the hellfire K laser designate variant.

 

The pilot cannot use the targeting system to precisely self laze for the K. 
 

There’s another sim out there with an Apache and you can put an AI in the front seat. It has what seems to me a very simplistic AI targeting system where you bring up a menu of available targets that shows everything within the sensor limits of the aircraft along with ranges to help you differentiate similar threats. You select a target and the AI lazes it. Then you can fire or command the ai to fire. Like I said it’s simple but it worked fairly well.

 

CasmoTV was an Apache pilot and he’s mentioned in one of his videos you can’t really run the Apache from one seat and be combat effective. I 100% believe that in a real life situation, but from a sim standpoint I don’t see a problem with having an intuitive and simple AI in the front seat. Then if you absolutely need to look through the sensors yourself laze a building or PID a target, just come to a hover and swap to the gunners seat.

 

The jester ai is a really great tool that lets you get a lot of out of the f14 that I guarantee most people would say would be impossible without a human rio. Jester ai isn’t perfect and will frustrate you with seemingly simple tasks like getting an STT lock on a bandit you both see on the repeater right in front of you: “Sorry, can’t do that! No can do!” Jester he’s right there!! Lol.
 

Regardless, jester gets a lot done with a very intuitive command wheel on what I assume is a far more complicated set of tasks: radar scanning, interpretation, and manipulation; visual out of cockpit identification; RWR readings; navigation and radio manipulation; bomb settings.

 

My 2 cents and the TL;DR version is, based on my experience with another Apache sim and the f14 module, I don’t see any reason to worry about either pilot controls of weapons or gunner seat ai.

 

Yup, you covered pretty much everything the pilot can do.

To reiterate, radar guided missiles can be controlled from the back seat (pilot) position with no aid from the TADS. Drawback is you can't get your visual ID on a target you have locked up and a few other neat functions the TADS can provide to L variants. The laser guided missiles would simply need a spotter, or "remote" host. 

Slew with the gun is control by your IHADSS but requires a bit more work since you can't lase your target for range, it then uses auto range which doesn't compute things like aircraft velocity and slant angle to a target. Rockets fall under these same limitations to but in my opinion are less effected then the cannon.

I would agree with casmo in saying it wouldn't be combat effective with a single crew member. However, in a pinch a single crew member can do enough to get out of an area and blast bad dudes on the way out. 

I'm very curious about how ED plans to implement an AI crewmember for the apache. It works with the F-14 but as we know it has its limitations like limited pilot control when you are the RIO. It's another story when your close to the ground trying to be a sneak squirrel popping tanks. We will see!

Edited March 22, 2021 by vigilante87

[S. Low]

Thanks for the additional info. I forgot about the laser range finding. That’s pretty important lol. Surely a jester-like ai could be expected to do this simple task.
 

Look at object. Open command wheel select “lase my target” and ai moves its crosshairs to your cross hair location and activates laser.

[jasonbirder]

On 2/28/2021 at 2:30 AM, Sryan said:

You can actually give orders to an AI from either seat in the F-14.

Well, A2G (The only thing an Apache will be doing...) NOT SO MUCH...

I'm sure that promised Jester LANTIRN functionality will be coming...in maybe Two Weeks or so!

[S. Low]

5 hours ago, jasonbirder said:

Well, A2G (The only thing an Apache will be doing...) NOT SO MUCH...

I'm sure that promised Jester LANTIRN functionality will be coming...in maybe Two Weeks or so!

I'm not sure your point here. Are you worried there will be zero AI air-to-ground functionality in ED's Apache? Seems unlikely. 

[Lurker]

I hope that the AI will be robust enough that I can focus on flying the chopper and leave all the minutiae of button fiddling to it. I dislike flying computers, I dislike modules where I have to be heads down and press several buttons just so I can get one missile off (maybe). I'm probably in the minority here, I know. 

[jasonbirder]

Quote

I'm not sure your point here. Are you worried there will be zero AI air-to-ground functionality in ED's Apache? Seems unlikely. 

I'd say I'm worried about What and how Effective the A2G functionality of any Jester AI in the Longbow will be...

Lets be honest CAS/BAI/AR type engagements from a  Rotary Winged Platform is far more complex (and in a more complex threat environment) than BVR A2A Combat and I'd be concerned as to how its going to handle that...

[Smashy]

On 3/18/2021 at 1:46 PM, Morrov said:

Take a look at this interview, they talk about the AI.

 

Thanks for sharing a link to this.  Great interview!  My favorite quotes from PilotMi8:

• "The good thing about simulators is that you can experiment limits of aircraft which pilots can’t, due to constraints of equipment, regulations and the desire to live."

• Q: What will the team work on after the Mi-24 releases?
  A: After the Mi-24 is out, we’ll work on the Mi-24. The amount of bugs 1000 users find instead of 10 is obviously going to be higher, so we’ll be working on that for the foreseeable future.

• Q: How does the Apache compare to the Mi-24?
  A: Why do you people care so much about the Apache? It’s too early to get a feel for it anyway, whenever there is one we’ll talk.  (Friendly rivalry at ED.  Love it!)

 

 

[S. Low]

I'm confused. How can the apache be planned for EA by the end of this year, but they don't have a feel for it? 

[vigilante87]

18 hours ago, Relic said:

I'm confused. How can the apache be planned for EA by the end of this year, but they don't have a feel for it? 

It's a different team, so I assume they are referring to getting play time in it themselves.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/19/2021 at 10:15 PM, MrReynolds said:

For me I'm hoping something like (if I remember rightly) Enemy Engaged.

 

One. Single. Button.......to simply swap seats. 

 

No change in gameplay at all, except a different set of instruments.  You could fly, engage, whatever.

 

Navigate in the back seat, hit the button and you're in the front, all with instruments set up ready to engage- but you could fly the helicopter all the same.  

 

I don't have the Tomcat so have no experience of a copilot, but I like to try and fly and engage all at the same time.  Just that little more challenge

When I fly the Huey and the Mi8 I do that by using two buttons of my joystick in lieu of the keys 1 and 2 of the keyboard, which make you enter either the pilot or the copilot seat.

[StrongHarm]

I think it's going to be a matter of level of detail.  "AI" is bad nomenclature for air crew, as they don't actually "machine learn" anything... but I guess this is an industry wide incorrect reference.  I work with AI and BI systems for a living and I could see some real use for AI in crew operations in DCS, but I don't think it will start that way.  I think they'll start with "explicit" commands rather than "implicit", meaning you tell the crewman precisely what you want done instead of inferring what you want done and letting him decide how to do it.  In Arma3 back in the day I was able to use the vanilla LUA commands to create a crew control menu that didn't already exist within the game.  I wouldn't say it was easy, but it's certainly not as complex as an implicit command AI.  I think we can expect something simple like this in the beginning (vid starts at appropriate time):