CFrag's A-10A Flight School (Training Missions)

[randomTOTEN]

CFrag this is a great set of tutorials, thank you for putting in the effort to create these! I'd like to give my thoughts from the perspective of a more experienced A-10A user. I've only done maybe 1/3rd of the missions so far, mostly related to basic flying.

 

1. Is there a reason you chose to not talk about using the AOA Indexer to set approach speed?

2. It doesn't feel right to me to be extending full flaps before the landing gear (I extend the gear first before any flaps), but I wonder what the rest of you guys are doing?

3. On that CCRP mission, I notice the jet starts at 135 knots. You probably did this for time before release. But it causes the aircraft to pitch nose up which obscures the target immediately before the active pause.

 

Keyboard commands: As soon as I noticed you didn't reference any of the keyboard commands, I immediately knew why you did it lol. One of the greatest complaints about FC3 aircraft from new users is that they cannot remember all the keyboard commands, and don't like extensive use of the keyboard for these aircraft. Makes total sense that you wouldn't use them at all. But as others have mentioned, forgoing the keyboard is also kind of a struggle. I guess the best way to discuss this would be to give my real time feedback on the startup mission (where most of these issues exist for me).

 

You ask me to set up basically every function on my HOTAS. Most people (including me) probably don't have enough room to assign all those commands. More importantly, in my opinion, I don't think a lot of these need to be mapped. Many of them are only ever used when the aircraft is either motionless, during periods of low workload, or are incredibly easy to use.

 

Lets take the example of the landing gear: you ask me to assign both "Landing Gear Up" and "Landing Gear Down." Up is LCTRL+G, Down is LSHFT+G. So we have either 2  key bindings with modifiers, or 2 different HOTAS bindings for the gear. I've never used either of these. There is a binding "Landing Gear Up/Down," it's keyboard command is simply "G." It's universal to all FC3 aircraft. In fact, it's universal to every module I have in DCS (except the Mig-21/15) It's very easy, just press the G key to work the gear. Unfortunately for your mission it's incorrect, it doesn't activate the trigger. It's a keyboard binding common to possibly every flight simulator since Microsoft Flight Simulator 3.0 in....1988?

 

Perhaps we can find a middle ground. Yes, the keyboard keys are complicated for FC3. But perhaps we could "teach" them to new pilots? Lets take some other examples.

 

You ask me to turn on the battery using an "Electrical Power" binding. I didn't set it. Because I'm an experienced player, I know the binding is RSHFT+L. Consider these default commands together:

Electrical Power Switch = RSHFT+L

Illumination Cockpit = L

Navigation Lights = RCTRL+L

Gear Light Near/Far/Off = RALT+L

Flashlight = LALT+L

 

Notice the pattern? If it's something to do with a light, the binding involves the letter L! So since I've learned to associate "battery" with "lights" for FC3 (yeah, it's a stretch) I know it involves the L key. And I know it's RSHFT+L just from experience.

 

The canopy command is different for many modules, but they all involve the C key. C=Canopy. F= it's got something to do with Flaps. Perhaps there is a better way to handle the keyboard instead of overwhelming new users or just telling them to assign everything. This isn't really directed specifically at you CFrag, but it's something I've been thinking about that's highlighted by your tutorial.

 

We do some more lights stuff (I do have some of those bound), and call ATC. Excellent.

Then you ask me to start the left engine. Just to highlight my experience and idea again. I know engines for all my modules use some modifier plus HOME to start. END is for shut down. I don't have these bound. The only time I'm going to use them is either when I'm parked, or perhaps after I have escaped a combat area, stabilized the aircraft, and have to shut down an engine. I know from experience engines are "usually" controlled with the modifiers on the right side (RALT,RSHFT,RCTRL) and you want me to start the left one, so of those, RALT is the farthest left. I press RALT+HOME and see the left throttle move to idle.

 

Is there any way we can transmit that kind of thinking/experience to new users instead of just dumping key commands or HOTAS bindings onto them?

Edited March 16, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[cfrag]

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to fly and (more importantly) provide feedback! I'm currently reworking the missions, and am really happy that you are providing me with so much helpful and encouraging input! 

 

18 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

1. Is there a reason you chose to not talk about using the AOA Indexer to set approach speed?

 

I'm working on a 'slow flight and turns' mission, and think that would be a better place to talk about that. I felt that adding AOA to the landing missions would be too much and create overload, and most people can land the Hog without watching their AOA. I have the feeling that roughly half of our esteemed flight sim enthusiasts land any plane that sport an AOA without ever bothering with it . That being said, that slow flight mission proves to be really difficult to write (reliably triggering stages), and that is why it's not included in the initial batch (plus, it's quite boring - as my testers complained). 

 

18 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

2. It doesn't feel right to me to be extending full flaps before the landing gear (I extend the gear first before any flaps), but I wonder what the rest of you guys are doing?

 

I've seen many people drop gear on downwind or even earlier (e.g. at 10 miles); often people in DCS use it simply to dump speed. My instructor once told me to drop gear late and only on final because steep turns while unclean, slow and heavy increases risk - yet in GA you'd be hard pressed to find a pilot who doesn't do that; I'm told many (prop) OMs even have "gear down" on the airfield approach check list (not final check list).

Personally, I don't think it's really a question of whether to drop flaps before gear or vice versa, but when is the correct time for each; that will then create the order in which they are dropped on that particular approach. I tend to drop flaps first and gear last, but of course, DCS being a game, I have dropped gear at 250 KIAS just get my speed down. "Any landing you can walk away from..." and all that  . 

 

18 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

3. On that CCRP mission, I notice the jet starts at 135 knots. You probably did this for time before release. But it causes the aircraft to pitch nose up which obscures the target immediately before the active pause.

 

That CCIP mission indeed needs improvement; setting up a plane with ME can be tricky, I need to find a better solution and I agree that 135 KIAS is too slow. Thanks!

 

18 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

Keyboard commands: As soon as I noticed you didn't reference any of the keyboard commands, I immediately knew why you did it lol. One of the greatest complaints about FC3 aircraft from new users is that they cannot remember all the keyboard commands, and don't like extensive use of the keyboard for these aircraft. Makes total sense that you wouldn't use them at all. But as others have mentioned, forgoing the keyboard is also kind of a struggle.

 

I'm reworking all missions to include the default keyboard mappings; I'm now also including voice-overs, completely butchering the English language and laying waste to your aural senses with my chainsaw called 'voice'; in the voice-overs I will not mention the default keyboard binds but they will appear in the transcript. This should allow you to find and use seldom-used (therefore unmapped) unmapped buttons and progress the mission (e.g. electrical power, instrument illumination). 

I now see that initially, I made a naïve assumption: I thought that people don't use the default key maps because "everyone" maps them to their controllers. I fly almost exclusively in VR, and there is no way I can use the keyboard; so I did away with them, conveniently forgetting that others may not have that option or even (gasp!) be flying pancake. So it needs being remedied.

 

You and some other kind souls also have brought up another issue that I overlooked: there are alternate key bindings that act as toggles for some functions (e.g. flaps, airbrakes, gear). Missions in DCS don't work on a plane's state (flaps up/down), but rather old-school on commands send (gear down). Currently my missions assume that you press exactly those deploy/un-deploy buttons and does not check for the toggles. Toggles send a different command (e.g. 'toggle gear') from gear down. This freezes the mission for those who have assigned toggle controls, instead of those that I expected. I'm fixing this now.

 

18 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

Is there any way we can transmit that kind of thinking/experience to new users instead of just dumping key commands or HOTAS bindings onto them?

 

Yes, I think that reworking the missions to display default key bindings (i.e. not forcing you to bind them to your controllers) and also rewrite all missions to accept alternate controls (toggles and dedicated up/down) should go a long way to alleviate most of these issues. I'm not sold on the key assignment mnemonics ("if it has to do with light, it's some L combination"); I feel that users tend to assign often-used commands to their controllers, and then try to avoid others. Also, the default assignment can be tenuous if not arbitrary. "battery means light, hence 'L'" work badly enough in English; it doesn't translate well for international players, so I'll simply try to avoid the issue as good as I can. 

 

I have updated the first three missions and will post them within the next two days; if at all possible please look at the improvements/changes and tell me what you think. I'll post here once the update is live, and what the changes are.

 

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to fly the missions and providing detailed feedback

 

-ch

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by cfrag

[draconus]

@cfragSince you do a tutorial it'd be best to know firsthand the procedures for the said aircraft. You're the tutor - you teach the right way. Doesn't matter what others or most DCS users do. Don't get me wrong - you did a great job already and it's very appreciated. It just needs refinement.

GA common knowledge is rarely useful in military procedures apart from general flying idea. Proper use of AoA is very important in landing. Don't leave it out. It's the basic concept - not some additional detail that overloads the brains. And you gear down and then extend flaps on downwind in most USAF/Navy aircraft. With proper approach and overhead pattern you end up with proper speed range so you don't have to improvise with some "gear-breaking".

btw: some aircraft (and it applies to A-10) have more flaps positions than binary extended/retracted - so it is best indeed to use direct key bindings instead of toggle.

Afaik VR users are still minority in DCS but I get that they would want to bind everything to HOTAS. Most of the others use default key bindings plus all their HOTAS can take. There's also another small group focused on realistic bindings (only RL HOTAS bindings, the rest on keyboard or other physical devices).

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by draconus

[cfrag]

Update available

 

V01.02 - 20220317
Summary: Main change are optional voice-overs and cockpit highlights for the first three missions (Cold&dark, Takeoff & joyride, Navigation Basics). The navigation basics mission has received significant re-writes. All missions have received some minor scenery additions to make them more interesting. Added two free-flight missions.
 

Change Details 
  - New Missions: Free Flight Day Caucasus, Free Flight Night Caucasus
  - Cold & Dark:
        - Added voice-overs
        - Added some live scenery
        - 'Q' turns off/on voice-overs 
        - Improved instructions / wording for clarity
        - Added cockpit highlights
        - supports flaps toggle in addition to flaps landing position
        - improved flag handling for re-enabling voice
  - Takeoff & Joyride
        - Added voice-overs
        - 'Q' turns off/on voice-overs
        - Improved instructions
        - added minor active scenery
        - added cockpit highlights 
        - supports flaps toggle in addition to flaps landing position
        - supports gear toggle in addition to gear up 
  - Navigation Basics
        - Added voice-overs
        - 'Q' toggles voice-overs 
        - significantly reworked instructions, better included HSI, removed Otto entirely
        - re-pathed final third
        - Added cockpit highlights for HUD and HSI
        - now supports landings in Soganlug, actively not Lochini
        - added active scenery 

  - Straight-In Landing
        - prepared for audio voice overs
        - tweaked weather slightly

  - IMC Landing
        - enabled cross-wind and turbulences

[cfrag]

17 minutes ago, draconus said:

@cfragSince you do a tutorial it'd be best to know firsthand the procedures for the said aircraft. You're the tutor - you teach the right way. Doesn't matter what others or most DCS users do. Don't get me wrong - you did a great job already and it's very appreciated. It just needs refinement.

GA common knowledge is rarely useful in military procedures apart from general flying idea. Proper use of AoA is very important in landing. Don't leave it out. And you gear down and then extend flaps on downwind in most USAF/Navy aircraft. With proper approach and overhead pattern you end up with proper speed range so you don't have to improvise with some "gear-breaking".

Afaik VR users are still minority in DCS but I get that they would want to bind everything to HOTAS. Most of the others use default key bindings plus all their HOTAS can take. There's also another small group focused on realistic bindings (only RL HOTAS bindings, the rest on keyboard or other physical devices).

 

 

 

I appreciate the feedback, and don't mind any corrections or suggestions. I see this set of tutorials as much a learning opportunity for me as for everyone else. I don't pretend to know everything (especially since I'm not a military aviator), and am happy to implement corrections. Just keep the comments coming, and eventually these tutorial missions can become really, really good. And please bear with me if some corrections take longer (forever) to implement; writing missions takes a lot of time and effort. 

 

Wrt correct procedure for the A-10A, do you have any pointers that can help me get a better understanding of when to lower flaps and gear in a pattern? I'd of course love to get it correct, even if I have to re-write the pattern and approach missions  

 

-ch

Edited March 17, 2021 by cfrag

[draconus]

15 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Wrt correct procedure for the A-10A, do you have any pointers that can help me get a better understanding of when to lower flaps and gear in a pattern?

I suggest to use A-10C manual from page 499 on:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/documentation/dcs_a-10c_flight_manual_en/

[Ironhand]

35 minutes ago, draconus said:

And you gear down and then extend flaps on downwind in most USAF/Navy aircraft. With proper approach and overhead pattern you end up with proper speed range so you don't have to improvise with some "gear-breaking".

 

Just to reinforce this for CFrag. The same is true for Russian aircraft (Su-27, MiG-29). Gear and flaps are lowered during the downwind leg. Particular speeds and altitudes stipulated.

[cfrag]

9 minutes ago, draconus said:

I suggest to use A-10C manual from page 499 on:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/downloads/documentation/dcs_a-10c_flight_manual_en/

 

Thank you so much for the pointer, but I did study that (and the A-10A's manual) while building the mission; no contradictory information on correct procedure was forthcoming, and the information contained there is already in the missions. That document on page 508 does not mention gear down, flaps down on downwind nor base but final. It seems that we don't have to correct that

   

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by cfrag

[cfrag]

55 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

 

Just to reinforce this for CFrag. The same is true for Russian aircraft (Su-27, MiG-29). Gear and flaps are lowered during the downwind leg. Particular speeds and altitudes stipulated.

 

Thank you for providing feedback, I appreciate that immensely. I'm aware that there are many planes that drop flaps and gear on downwind; IIRC the FA-18 (which I love to fly) is also among them. The A-10, it seems, not. At least I did not find any documentation on proper A-10 pattern procedure that said to drop flaps/gear on downwind or base, and only went with what I could find in the A-10A and A-10C manuals (the C manual states final). These manuals, however, are a bit skimpy on details and may be prone to misinterpretation; if you have better documentation please point me in the correct direction - I'd of course check it out immediately.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by cfrag

[Ironhand]

This might be of help:

 

 

 

From: T.O. 1A-10C-1 A-10C Flight Manual (02-04-2012)

Edited March 17, 2021 by Ironhand

[cfrag]

Thank you so much, @Ironhand! That is so helpful  -- I see a that the overhead landing pattern (although it uses the same graphic) differs in the A-10C manual in exactly the point we discussed: drop flaps and gear at start of base. Since the overhead landing pattern is the template I'd use for the 'standard' pattern, it seems a good idea to put this into the pattern mission, and also change the pattern altitude to 1500 AGL instead of the 2000 AGL as described in the C manual. I'll also recalculate the speeds, as 200 KIAS (currently in the mission) seems a bit excessive and I now have the formula! So good! Thanks again!

 

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

I see a that the overhead landing pattern (although it uses the same graphic) differs in the A-10C manual

 

 These diagrams are from an A-10C manual [T.O. 1A-10C-1 A-10C Flight Manual (02-04-2012)] but probably something other than what you’ve referenced. Truth be told, the same diagrams are used in the A-10A manual I have as well. I just found the A-10C first and used that as a reference.

[Woolfe]

Fantastic, thanks so much for your hard work! 

 

 

[X_legio]

Thank you for all your efforts....

 

[cfrag]

I have posted a final update with a multitude of improvements. There won't be updates in the foreseeable future 

 

V1.3 - 20210514 (final)
All missions received a DCS 2.7 update. Note that unfortunately, changes to 2.7 currently break the Cockpit Highlights in VR (and possibly pancake. I seldom fly without VR, and need to check). More missions received voice-overs and content overhaul, some small scenery updates. Completely rewrote all ILS missions - and added a really, really challenging ILS IMC mission. DCS 2.7 threw a spanner into the IMC mission visuals, and they may require some additional tweaking. Added kneeboard improvements to many missions; kneeboard now opens on mission start for many missions.

 

Change Details

• all missions: DCS 2.7 update to weather in lighting. 
• start up and taxi
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• joyride / fun flight 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• navigation basics 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• straight-in landing 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• Kneeboard: added pages: 
  • A-10 Pattern    
  • Approach
  • Cold Start Checklist
  • ILS fix point calculation
  • Morse Code
  • Pattern
• Free Flight Day:
  • Added Kneeboards
  • Auto-show kneeboard on mission start
  • pause mission until wpn fire
  • some dynamic scenery at Kolkhi to spiff up cold start surrounds
  • added mission image
  • added A-10 APR to Krymsk
  • radio chatter in background 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• Free Flight Night (03 AM)
  • added mission image (night)
  • same changes as day mission
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• Straight in landing    
  • reworked instructions
  • Added AOA instructions 
  • Optional Gear Down at 10 Miles
  • Voice-Overs (optional)
  • Tower Chatter
  • Added Indicators for AOA and Flaps
  • added kneeboard
  • open kneeboard on start
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• ILS assisted Night Landing 
  • changed name to ILS-assisted as we are flying a visual approach and a mock-intercept
  • completely rewrote instructions for clarity
  • moved gear down to 10 miles
  • added mock ILS intercept
  • added optional voice-overs 
  • starting alt 3k5, 230 kias
  • added cockpit highlights for ADI, ILS Station
  • new mission image: night landing 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• ILS "Easy" - IMC 
  • removed wind and turbulence
  • set to start at 3k5, 230 kias
  • rewrote all instructions
  • added voice overs
  • optional voice-overs 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
  • weather needs more tweaking
• ILS "Armageddon" (new mission)
  • based on IMC easy
  • wind, turbulence, early morning, thunderstorm
  • optional voice overs 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
  • weather needs more tweaking
• Pattern calm
  • set pattern height to 1500 AGL
  • re-calculated pattern speed, now 150-170
  • slightly reworked instructions
  • Added some AOA indexer and thrust/pitch hints
  • added voice overs
  • made voice overs optional
  • added some static scenery 
  • display kneeboard on start, pattern page
  • adapted pattern gates
  • added 2.7 compatibility 

 

-ch

[MAXsenna]

I have posted a final update with a multitude of improvements. There won't be updates in the foreseeable future 
 
V1.3 - 20210514 (final)
All missions received a DCS 2.7 update. Note that unfortunately, changes to 2.7 currently break the Cockpit Highlights in VR (and possibly pancake. I seldom fly without VR, and need to check). More missions received voice-overs and content overhaul, some small scenery updates. Completely rewrote all ILS missions - and added a really, really challenging ILS IMC mission. DCS 2.7 threw a spanner into the IMC mission visuals, and they may require some additional tweaking. Added kneeboard improvements to many missions; kneeboard now opens on mission start for many missions.
 
Change Details

• all missions: DCS 2.7 update to weather in lighting. 
• start up and taxi
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• joyride / fun flight 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• navigation basics 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• straight-in landing 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• Kneeboard: added pages: 
  • A-10 Pattern    
  • Approach
  • Cold Start Checklist
  • ILS fix point calculation
  • Morse Code
  • Pattern
• Free Flight Day:
  • Added Kneeboards
  • Auto-show kneeboard on mission start
  • pause mission until wpn fire
  • some dynamic scenery at Kolkhi to spiff up cold start surrounds
  • added mission image
  • added A-10 APR to Krymsk
  • radio chatter in background 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
• Free Flight Night (03 AM)
  • added mission image (night)
  • same changes as day mission
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• Straight in landing    
  • reworked instructions
  • Added AOA instructions 
  • Optional Gear Down at 10 Miles
  • Voice-Overs (optional)
  • Tower Chatter
  • Added Indicators for AOA and Flaps
  • added kneeboard
  • open kneeboard on start
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• ILS assisted Night Landing 
  • changed name to ILS-assisted as we are flying a visual approach and a mock-intercept
  • completely rewrote instructions for clarity
  • moved gear down to 10 miles
  • added mock ILS intercept
  • added optional voice-overs 
  • starting alt 3k5, 230 kias
  • added cockpit highlights for ADI, ILS Station
  • new mission image: night landing 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
• ILS "Easy" - IMC 
  • removed wind and turbulence
  • set to start at 3k5, 230 kias
  • rewrote all instructions
  • added voice overs
  • optional voice-overs 
  • added 2.7 compatibility
  • weather needs more tweaking
• ILS "Armageddon" (new mission)
  • based on IMC easy
  • wind, turbulence, early morning, thunderstorm
  • optional voice overs 
  • added 2.7 compatibility 
  • weather needs more tweaking
• Pattern calm
  • set pattern height to 1500 AGL
  • re-calculated pattern speed, now 150-170
  • slightly reworked instructions
  • Added some AOA indexer and thrust/pitch hints
  • added voice overs
  • made voice overs optional
  • added some static scenery 
  • display kneeboard on start, pattern page
  • adapted pattern gates
  • added 2.7 compatibility 

 
-ch

Thanks!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[draconus]

@cfrag

Mind that you denied all release version players by moving to 2.7 atm. Not very new user friendly. These are training missions after all.

[MAXsenna]

@cfrag
Mind that you denied all release version players by moving to 2.7 atm. Not very new user friendly. These are training missions after all.

Well, if he ain't gonna touch'em for a while, I understand this. Better to have them working in 2.7 than being broken when 2.7 is released to stable IMHO.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

@cfrag

Mind that you denied all release version players by moving to 2.7 atm. Not very new user friendly. These are training missions after all.

I’m guilty of the same "sin" with my missions, and it was the same when 2.5.6 appeared .. for space reasons I can’t have two separate versions of DCS on my rig, so I’m able to support my missions on just one of them. I doubt that the OP doesn’t want to be friendly, but it’s not always possible to support every DCS version, particularly for a free item.

[draconus]

I understand possible reasons. No offence. Just a reminder that new users usually are on stable. And who knows if this version of missions will work when stable 2.7 is released?

[cfrag]

8 hours ago, draconus said:

I understand possible reasons. No offence. Just a reminder that new users usually are on stable. And who knows if this version of missions will work when stable 2.7 is released?

 

Thank you both for your feedback - and no offense taken at all. As I wrote, I discontinued working on the tutorials. If it doesn't run on 2.7 stable (or any other beta versions), that's that. Since 2.7 does require an overhaul of every single mission (see the Huey's landing training mission for what can happen if you don't re-save with new weather), this was the best choice.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by cfrag

[M4ND4L0R3]

Hi Cfrag,

This is the first time I have seen this error, just giving you a screen shot. Seem's loading this graphics file causes this error message, and even if I click ok the mission never loads. Its done this for missions 1 2 and 3, so i havent actually played any of them yet. I dont really have mods installed and I have played other custom missions downloaded from the user database before without issue.

 

Im pretty sure i have the current version downloaded ( steam version ).
 

[MAXsenna]

Hi Cfrag,

This is the first time I have seen this error, just giving you a screen shot. Seem's loading this graphics file causes this error message, and even if I click ok the mission never loads. Its done this for missions 1 2 and 3, so i havent actually played any of them yet. I dont really have mods installed and I have played other custom missions downloaded from the user database before without issue.

 
Im pretty sure i have the current version downloaded ( steam version ).
 

Which version of DCS are you using?
As stated in the thread, the latest version of the missions are for DCS OpenBeta 2.7
Are you running Beta on Steam? If not you probably just have to open the missions in mission editor and save them.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Rudel_chw]

24 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

... If not you probably just have to open the missions in mission editor and save them.
 

 

no, that does not work, as the editor of dcs 2.5.6 can’t load missions created on a newer version of the editor.

 

[MAXsenna]

 
no, that does not work, as the editor of dcs 2.5.6 can’t load missions created on a newer version of the editor.
 

Ah, too bad. Thanks Rudel!

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