Mig-29 turn rate

[sylkhan]

 

Here is reality and not propaganda or wrong marketing data charts.

I can't do the same quick turn in DCS with the Mig-29.

Will the Mig-29 Fms be adjust to real world perfomance and why the 2 worst turn fighter in real life (F-18, F-14) are the 2 best in DCS ?

[DD_Fenrir]

[BonerCat]

There's a lot wrong with that post, so let's start from the top:

 

The video:
The video seems to be a compilation of different air shows, which -does not mean- that all of these turns are max turn rate (without getting into sustained or instantaneous, since it wasn't specified), only that this was the turn chosen for the air show routine.
Yes, the MiG-29 makes the 360 the fastest out of these 5, but that doesn't really mean anything.
Any plane can pull a quick 360, what matters is how much speed was bled during that turn, which is not something shown in the video.
That alone is enough to dismiss the entire post, not even going into how much cherry picking could've gone into a video like this.
Let's keep going

 

 

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

Here is reality and not propaganda or wrong marketing data charts.

Can of worms not worth getting into.
If you can't trust the manufacturers and end users of the planes on accuracy of their data, you can't really do anything accurately.
 

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

I can't do the same quick turn in DCS with the Mig-29.

Yes you can. Going from 850-900ish kph pulling on the stick as hard as you can, and getting of AB for a second will have the 29 turning around like there's no tommorow
Granted, the G's you will pull can easily cause a black out, and you will get out of that turn much slower than you started, but you'll have pulled a 360 turn like nobody's business.

 

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

Will the Mig-29 Fms be adjust to real world perfomance

I highly doubt any developer putting hours on end into their project, researching the topic relentlessly, will change a significant portion of it based on a 25 second clip, that proves nothing

 

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

and why the 2 worst turn fighter in real life (F-18, F-14) are the 2 best in DCS ?

I do agree that it seems a bit bullshit at times just how well they turn, especially in hands on a competent pilot, but if you have any real sources contradicting their flight model, do bring it up.
No, this is not a real source contradicting any of the flight models of the planes in the clip

If you're having trouble turning in the MiG-29, try staying between 850 and 950Kph for a sustained turn. Any faster, and the plane becomes a lawn dart. Any slower, and a good yank on the stick will make the plane turn on the spot and loose all the speed (which may be what you want to do).

Good luck with your 29 flying m8!

Edited March 31, 2021 by BonerCat

[XPACT]

We don't know any info regarding these videos... altitude, fuel, speed.

 

But obviously he is not carrying anything, probably has low amount of fuel and is doing full afterburner so with that little info we got I just tried doing "sustained" turn at 750km/h, 500m altitude, nothing on the wings and 1000kg of fuel, AOA was ≈15.5deg, ≈7.5g full turn was acomplished in ≈16.5 seconds and exit speed was around 690km/h and I lost around 15m of altitude in the process.

 

Now with better skill (I wouldn't consider myself overly good) and equipment I think you can actually get scary close to the measured time in the video atleast in this configuration.

[sylkhan]

44 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

There's a lot wrong with that post, so let's start from the top

Not at all

45 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

The video seems to be a compilation of different air shows, which -does not mean- that all of these turns are max turn rate

An airshow is the place to show the best of your aircraft.

In 1988, the Mig-29 compete with the F-16 to do the best turn.

First day mig-29 18s, F-16 20s, the second day the F-16 succeded to do 18s but Mig-29 do 16s

The times in the video are corrects and are their best quick turn.

46 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

 (without getting into sustained or instantaneous, since it wasn't specified),

Not need to be specified, it's evidence, 18.6s for an sustained F-16 turn, hmmm... not possible.

48 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

only that this was the turn chosen for the air show routine

Yes, theirs best quick turn to show he capacity of heir plane

55 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

Any plane can pull a quick 360, what matters is how much speed was bled during that turn, 

Yes, and some do better than others and that's what we call the quickest turn, you know.

57 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

 which is not something shown in the video.

It is

1 hour ago, BonerCat said:

That alone is enough to dismiss the entire post

That dismiss only your arguments.

1 hour ago, BonerCat said:

If you can't trust the manufacturers and end users of the planes on accuracy of their data, you can't really do anything accurately

Marketing, do you know what this word means ?

1 hour ago, BonerCat said:

I do agree that it seems a bit bullshit at times just how well they turn, especially in hands on a competent pilot, but if you have any real sources contradicting their flight model, do bring it up

Proof in video, i trust only what i see, if you have video with better turn, give us, and not hollywood movie pls

1 hour ago, BonerCat said:

If you're having trouble turning in the MiG-29, try staying between 850 and 950Kph for a sustained turn. Any faster, and the plane becomes a lawn dart. Any slower, and a good yank on the stick will make the plane turn on the spot and loose all the speed (which may be what you want to do).

I fly the Mig-29 perfectly well, Thanks

[Cmptohocah]

1 hour ago, BonerCat said:

Yes, the MiG-29 makes the 360 the fastest out of these 5, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Actually in a WVR combat, where one is trying to get the "nose" on the hostile and send out an R-73 as soon as possible, turn rate means everything.

 

One will cover more degrees of turn per unit of time and thus have the first shot. In this kind of situation turn radii don't really play a role.

[Ironhand]

42 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

...Proof in video, i trust only what i see...

 

Oh my...

 

I can take that video and make any of those aircraft turn the 360 in 10 seconds. Or make the MIG’s turn take 20 seconds for that matter. OTOH, XPACT did come very close to matching the video.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Ironhand

[sylkhan]

27 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

 

Oh my...

 

I can take that video and make any of those aircraft turn the 360 in 10 seconds. Or make the MIG’s turn take 20 seconds for that matter. OTOH, XPACT did come very close to matching the video.

 

Correct, we can even make people to walk on the moon, but not everybody is dishonest, you know.

For the 1988 farnborough Mig-29 airshow here it is :

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by sylkhan

[XPACT]

I have no reason to lie about my achieved turn rate especially considering my bias towards Russian aircraft hehe

As you said it is showing off competition so pilot is skilled and will pull high G's to acomplish it.

 

In the video it is evident that he lost a lot of speed at exit so here you go, high speed high AOA lower speed at exit, I lost only 25m of altitude.

 

Time taken depending on how you measure is between 15.5 - 16 seconds

 

MiG29turnrate.trk

 

 

 

 

[Ironhand]

36 minutes ago, XPACT said:

I have no reason to lie about my achieved turn rate...

 

??? Hope that comment wasn’t aimed at me as I have no doubt you got the result you did. Our MiG is certainly capable of it.

[XPACT]

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

Correct, we can even make people to walk on the moon, but not everybody is dishonest, you know.

 

Haha no @Ironhand I was refering to his comment forgot to quote it

[Top Jockey]

5 hours ago, sylkhan said:

...

 

Here is reality and not propaganda or wrong marketing data charts.

I can't do the same quick turn in DCS with the Mig-29.

Will the Mig-29 Fms be adjust to real world perfomance and why the 2 worst turn fighter in real life (F-18, F-14) are the 2 best in DCS ?

 

Hello,

 

There is already much info on the MiG-29's turn / maneuver capabilities in this forum.

(Right from the LOMAC times also.)

 

Me too, was initially convinced the MiG-29A was the "definition of perfection" in every aspect of close quarters maneuvering, (obviously before the recent euro-fighters, the 'Thrust Vector Control' advent, etc.)

... but IRL it seems the MiG isn't all alone at the top of the hill.

Created that impression, probably because of early flight sims more subjective depictions, popular media, etc.

 

In early times I even thought that the FC3 in-game MiG-29 and F-15 flight models were possibly swapped between each other !

 

 

Altough IRL it is obviously a VERY dangerous opponent while turning, actually there seems to exist details were the F/A-18C and the Su-27 are slightly superior to the MiG-29 in the maneuvering department.

 

- MiG-29's absense of FBW;

- stable design (more airspeed loss while turning);

- lift coefficient lower than the Su-27...

Using Google Translator, I once created a thread in the Russian forum... their majority confirmed the Su-27 does have a small advantage.

 

 

If you want to know more 'technicalities' of why it could have been better, feel free to look at the thread below:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/220395-mig-29s-bfm-characteristics-doubts

 

... I've sure learned a lot from those guys.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Top Jockey

[Cmptohocah]

4 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

- MiG-29's absense of FBW;

- stable design (more airspeed loss while turning);

- lift coefficient lower than the Su-27.

- how does absense of FBW decresase turn performance? 

- airspeed loss can't be a measure of turn performance, altough I see what you mean in the practical sense. By turn performance I mean turn rate & turn radius

- does this mean that Su-27 has higher lift at same critical angle of attack as 29, or that it can have higher critical AoA?

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

Starting to look a lot like a Keyaero thread to me

[Lurker]

This guy doesn't believe that people walked on the moon. Okaaaaay. Time to slowly exit with my back turned towards the door and no sudden movement on my part. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Lurker

[sylkhan]

Ok, let me give you some facts, guys

 

Fact 1 : an airshow is the place to show the flying capacities of your aircraft to the world

Fact 2 : Mig-29 always outclass western conterparts in term of flying performance and capacities.

Fact 3 : F-14, F-18, F-16 never show a quickest turn than mig-29 (oh i have seen a F-18 trying to do a cobra, ahahahah..)

 

All other considerations are just BS for me, facts ... only facts.

 

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

Ok, let me give you some facts, guys

As XPACT has shown, the fact is that the DCS MiG-29 already does what your video shows. So what exactly is your issue with the DCS MiG-29's turn rate?

[XPACT]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

As XPACT has shown, the fact is that the DCS MiG-29 already does what your video shows.

 

In the provided track it was more of a show off that it can even beat the video since it took exactly 15.509 seconds to finish 360 degree turn and it wasn't perfect by any means. I did pull more G's than I would like at the beginning of the turn but with my current setup, sadly, I don't have required precision.

 

With better control, lower AOA hence lower maximum G's, you can do perfect circle with minimal speed loss (entry 750km/h and exit at around 650km/h) and do it in 16 seconds guaranteed because I managed to do 16.5 and saw many parts of the turn where I could improve it, at the end of the day it just requires a good setup and skill.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npkd-gIalz4

[sylkhan]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

As XPACT has shown, the fact is that the DCS MiG-29 already does what your video shows. So what exactly is your issue with the DCS MiG-29's turn rate?

Yes, it can be done with 30% fuel (forgot to lower the fuel in my quick test), thx to XPACT for the track

[XPACT]

Fuel amount is probably the reason why he did the turn at the very end of display to maximize performance, he probably had even less than 1000kg at that point

Edited April 1, 2021 by XPACT

[Top Jockey]

7 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

- how does absense of FBW decresase turn performance? 

- airspeed loss can't be a measure of turn performance, altough I see what you mean in the practical sense. By turn performance I mean turn rate & turn radius

- does this mean that Su-27 has higher lift at same critical angle of attack as 29, or that it can have higher critical AoA?

 

What I'm refering to is this, which for me makes all sense :

 

 

On lift coefficient I don't really know much, I suppose it also may help pulling more G's with less need for an higher AoA while turning, again - Su-27 vs MiG-29A airframes comparison.

 

Also, even today I cannot say for sure between the MiG-29A or the Su-27, which one does have the smallest turn radius.

[sylkhan]

55 minutes ago, XPACT said:

Fuel amount is probably the reason why he did the turn at the very end of display to maximize performance, he probably had even less than 1000kg at that point

 

Exactly, in an airshow the pilot want to give the best of his aircraft.

[Top Jockey]

2 hours ago, sylkhan said:

Exactly, in an airshow the pilot want to give the best of his aircraft.

 

Have you read the thread I mentioned above ?

 

 

edit

 

Also found the thread created sometime ago in the Russian forum:

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/242422-sravnenie-manevrov-mig-29-i-su-27/

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Top Jockey

[stefasaki]

Hi!  

 

I just wanted to point out that the all time best 360 turn done by a fighter jet at an airshow goes to the su-27 (-PD variant flown by Kvochur) which routinely did it in 13 seconds. That was the last maneuver of Kvochur's demos in the Nineties, the aircraft was very light at the time of that manuever (17500 kg or so) and it wasn't by any means a sustained turn. Still, no other aircraft comes even close to that. In terms of DCS performance the Su-27 can't do better than 14 seconds without disabling the FBW, so there is some room for improvements there, while the MiG-29 is quite accurate, as a 16 seconds full circle (the best done by a Fulcrum at airshows) can be easily replicated. I find the mig-29's flight model to be quite realistic and well done actually.

 

Here's a video of the 13 seconds turn (4:25 -> 4:38) : 

 

 

 

[Skysurfer]

Go back to your hole where you belong. Show me the EM chart of the 29 you are speaking of - actual hard data not some youtube video. Most airshows arent flown at "corner speed" or max sustained rates etc. let alone the same conditions or comparable weights. We have data for the 29A (9.12) from the GAF manuals and those match DCS reasonably well. 9.13 (29S) should have only slightly more max AOA and controlability. 

 

Again, apart from youe YouTube video please do provide the performance charts or any factual reference to form a well-educated, fact-based and rock solid opinion.

 

EDIT: And OF COURSE it's your own video. Nice evidence crafting my dude.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Skysurfer