Choppers in modern Warfare

[Mip...]

Hey Dudes,

have just completed the registration and allready starting a thread:music_whistling:

 

I am seriously thinking of the role military choppers play in modern Warfare. I can see the advantages in transportation on the battlefield compared to planes, so i can see a place for pure heavy lift helicopters or Hybrids like the mi-24.

But what is the point in pure Battle Choppers like appache or ka-50, when planes are faster, have higher range und more weapons onboard and posess heavier armour?

For Example the A-10 can, in my point of view, replace the appache.

Are such armed choppers only for low intenisity warfare against bat equipped guerillas without Manpands? I dont see their advanteges compared to planes, i see them as highly vulnerable especially in Urban warfare.

Are they even usefull in a full scale conflict? Take for Example Nato vs Russia in Georgia. What would the Appaches and Ka-50s do what planes cant do?

so can somebody explkain their role to me?

 

( Sorry for my english, its not my native language and i must hurry, work waiting for me now :cry: )

[GGTharos]

They would attack light and heavily armored vehicles, and support their own infantry and armored vehicles ...

 

They would be close to their own troops and they'd be able to move from spot to spot with ease, as needed. They're flying IFV's or tanks basically, able to to shore up their own forces in a trouble spot quickly.

 

A-10's can bring the heat in, but they can't do the sort of close combat that helicopters can do.

[Highwayman-Ed]

Situational Awareness from a helicopter is much better than that in a fixed wing aircraft. the ability to approach undetected, and loiter can also be much better as an aircraft has to maintain airspeed (Harriers excluded for the sake of an argument), which means that it has to fly over a larger area, and expose itself to more threats.

 

There's your starter, and there are a lot more, but I'll let somebody else carry the torch for a while ;)

[Legolasindar]

Choppers can attack small targets, see videos of apaches firing gun to enemy soldiers. Can provide close support for friend soldiers, stay and hold near of this soldiers, evade enemy radar using terrain. Airplanes cant hold, cant evade radars, cant shoot small targets. Airplanes need airports for operating, choppers can takeoff/landing from anywhere.

 

Both aircraft as helicopters, are magnificent machines of war, but each has its role, and develop a kind of mission better than another.

[ThunderChief]

I think you have to see the advanteges of helicopters when interacting with ground units. If its a pure air war, choppers have no advantage to aircraft.

 

It might be basically the question of what risk one is willing to take. If you have infantry on the ground the risk of loosing a chopper will pay of if you save your man on the ground.

[Yellonet]

Doesn't this belong in Military and Aviation? Hrm ;)

[GGTharos]

No need to exclude them. Harriers can hover, but this is used for landing and takeoff, not in combat - at least, under normal circumstances they'll fly like a regular aircraft ;)

 

(Harriers excluded for the sake of an argument)

[amalahama]

No need to exclude them. Harriers can hover, but this is used for landing and takeoff, not in combat - at least, under normal circumstances they'll fly like a regular aircraft ;)

 

Hey, has nobody seen "True Lies"? :lol: It's hilarious to see Arnold launching a Sidewinder from a Harrier with a terrorist hang on it, in the middle of N.Y:D What's a funny film!

 

Regards!!

[-sulan-]

Yeah I believe the Harrier only has 60-90 seconds or so of hovering due to it's watercooling.. Would be pretty cool though if this was'nt the case, as in true lies :D

Very interesting discussion! :thumbup:

[sobek]

What part needs watercooling on the Harrier?

[arneh]

What part needs watercooling on the Harrier?

 

The engine uses water injection, mostly to increase thrust. Though it also helps cooling the exhaust. Particulary important to prevent damage to the flaps, since the engine blows on the flaps to increase lift.

Edited August 30, 2008 by arneh

[ThunderChief]

I think most of all the Harrier has only very limited excess power in hover, which makes it less agile than helicopter.

You have to plan your decent and landing very well in a Harrier, as you can't allow high sinkrates in a hover.

I think this denies hovering in combat but it very well can use vector thrust in forward flight. But that shouldn't be overestimated anyway.

Edited August 30, 2008 by ThunderChief

[LazerPotatoe]

What about troop insertions and SAR? These are also better suited to helicopters than plane, and are part of modern warfare.

[d0ppler]

What about troop insertions and SAR? These are also better suited to helicopters than plane, and are part of modern warfare.

 

I believe the poster is aware of those points, but a KA-52 helicopter can't do troop insertions nor SAR. (Well, it can do the search part though.. :))

[deviletk]

If im not completelly mistaken, doesnt the harrier need to have its nose at the wind direction (with or against) or else it becomes extremelly unstable (maybe that was older version?). The JSF F35 have stable hover though and the pilot can go hands off the stick without crash.

 

Almost forgot my point (very late, or early) :) But the harrier would suck noodles fighting in hover mode as it would require the wind to be not too heavy and the fact that it requires very steady hands not to tilt.

 

Good night

 

/Alex

Edited August 31, 2008 by deviletk

[RedTiger]

A helicopter is like the cavalry of old; you sacrifice staying power for mobility. Unlike cavalry, who would dismount and fight with carbines inferior to the regular infantry weapons, your weapon is more effective and has longer range than the "regular infantry" weapon (the tank). You just don't carry 40 rounds of it like a tank. You can also better scouting ability of a light wheeled or tracked vehicle, but much faster, unimpeded by terrain, AND still have the lethality of a tank. There are also vital missions that a helicopter can fulfill that would be impossible for a tank. You can be very sneaky and attack a parked motor pool at night or other encampment from long range. Imagine the chaos and terror that would cause, creating a few steel coffins for the poor tankers asleep inside. You have to look no further than Desert Storm to see how well that worked (hopefully you'll ID your targets properly :( )

 

EDIT: here's something else to consider. For a plane to provide CAS, it has to either fly higher than the enemy's defenses to avoid getting killed and carry a limited payload (F-16) or be low and slow enough to visually target things but also be very well armored (A-10). Either you're "one pass, haul ass" or you may have to shrug off some ground fire. It can't really hide, and it will either have a short loitering time or it will have to risk being shot at. A helicopter can stalk around and actually ambush something.

Edited August 31, 2008 by RedTiger

[CAT_101st]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttc6d3bMAdU

 

This shuld help.

 

Does anybody know what tactics U.S. Army Apaches used to attack Iraqi armored divisions during Desert Storm and OIF, and how the outcome was?

 

the AH-64 can just sit back at 5 miles and attack. the Iraqi's did not have the training or the eqipment to see ar attack the AH-64. And the first attacks from the AH-64 was at night.

[RedTiger]

A-10 pilots in Desert Storm who were flying night missions found out that their turbofan engines were inaudible above 5000 feet. Iraqi AAA-gunners didn't dare to use their radars most of the time because the Wild Weasels were doing their job, hence the A-10 was considered to be a "semi-stealth" plane at night that could quite safely loiter at low altitude.

 

Does anybody know what tactics U.S. Army Apaches used to attack Iraqi armored divisions during Desert Storm and OIF, and how the outcome was?

 

Hmm...I didn't know that. Makes sensd. I'd still say its hard for a plane to truly ambush something like an AT weapon mounted on a vehicle or helicopter can and make a kill zone since it always has to move forward and can't lie in wait. I guess it could "fly in wait" in your case though. :doh:

[AlphaOneSix]

Sorry for the off-topic, but I couldn't help but notice your location that you're listing. I fly up the Konar valley all the time. In fact, I was in the first aircraft on scene two nights ago to help look for that guy that fell in the river (may he R.I.P.).