AWG-9 track not breakable with jammer yet

[Max1mus]

I asked about this almost 2 years ago, but now ED is implementing jamming effects on their F-18 and F-16 radars, and reworking INS of its missiles.

When will you add the possibility to defeat the AWG-9 with ECM at long ranges? The F-14 jammer (with it turning itself on/off in extremely short intervals) has the aircraft 100% immune to any SAM or missile from Soviet, RuAf and PLAAF fighters above around 25 miles. Note, the much more modern F-18 and its jammer are nowhere near this capable, and using them affects their own radar. Meanwhile the AWG-9 can track a fighter sized target from more than 90 nautical miles, almost 4 times that distance.

Heatblur said that this is planned. You have announced a new module, so i assume you consider the F-14 nearly fully finished. Can we expect this to be adressed very soon?

[near_blind]

What's your plan to simulate the diverse effects of multiple generations of ECM emitters spanning 50 years on the ECCM suite of a semi analogue radar when the EW infrastructure in DCS currently consists of Jamming: Yes? / No? It doesn't help that the F/A-18 is a modern set where ECCM is largely automated, and the effects of DECM on ownship are modelled incorrectly. Even then: why would you want HB to step in and try to hit a moving target while the EW model as it is, and how it interacts with weapons is in a state of constant flux as ED tries to mess with it, knowing that this will inevitably mean that HB will have to waste more time to fix it again at a later point down the road. 

 

I'm sympathetic to the issues caused by the blinky DECM, but the rest should be left to a later date when ED has solidified what it wants to do in this arena. 

[Sajarov]

Why do you think that's a bug. And how you define long distances?

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using Tapatalk

[dundun92]

The bug is that the AWG-9 is completely unaffected by ECM. That being said, knowing HB, I dont think theyd want to half do this; w/e they do Thad probably put the effort into a more complete/realistic simulation rather than the basic "if above X nm break lock" like rn.

Edited May 8, 2021 by dundun92

[Max1mus]

Any implementation is needed.

 

None is unacceptable, given that Heatblur gave the F-14 a cheat implementation of ECM, that abuses the jammer mechanics in DCS by turning itself on and off every 1-2 seconds. This makes tracking it with a missile not improbable, but entirely impossible. This has been the case for 2 years now, and the implementation promised to me on these forums is nowhere to be found.

 

Looks like there is no interest from HB, i will adress ED instead.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Max1mus

[Skysurfer]

What we'll probably end up seeing is a jamming strobe effect on the DDD (raw return) and line of resulting trackfiles on the TID. Since chaff and range/velocity gate pulloff returns aren't a thing in DCS I doubt we'll see those. I do think even the basic jamming strobe + denied lock until 22nm should be implemented asap though.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Noctrach]

I'd rather have all aircraft being unaffected by ECM than some arbitrary lock/no-lock range tbqh

 

The AWG-9 was renown for its capability to manually negate a lot of jamming effects, through the (unimplemented) left half of the DDD knobs.

Seems bizarre to force some binary ECM simplification onto the jet because some other missiles/jets don't react in a sane way to DECM.

Smells like "pvp balancing" to me.

[Skysurfer]

4 hours ago, Noctrach said:

I'd rather have all aircraft being unaffected by ECM than some arbitrary lock/no-lock range tbqh

 

The AWG-9 was renown for its capability to manually negate a lot of jamming effects, through the (unimplemented) left half of the DDD knobs.

Seems bizarre to force some binary ECM simplification onto the jet because some other missiles/jets don't react in a sane way to DECM.

Smells like "pvp balancing" to me.

 

Yeah, sadly this is what it comes down to. It's either as jammable as all other radars in DCS or not jammable at all - in any case people will complain. 

[QuiGon]

Jamming effects are still WIP:

  

On 11/27/2019 at 11:19 PM, Naquaii said:

The jamming effects for the AWG-9 are still on the list, we just haven't gotten to that yet.

 

[GGTharos]

On 5/10/2021 at 12:54 PM, Noctrach said:

The AWG-9 was renown for its capability to manually negate a lot of jamming effects, through the (unimplemented) left half of the DDD knobs.

 

This is a meaningless statement.  I might as well say you can't jam an APG-63 but we know that's not true.  There's no such thing as negating jamming effects, you can at best mitigate them.

 

Quote

Seems bizarre to force some binary ECM simplification onto the jet because some other missiles/jets don't react in a sane way to DECM.

Smells like "pvp balancing" to me.

 

There's nothing bizarre about this; all radars should be affected by ECM.  If it's simple, they should all use that simple effect.  This isn't pvp balancing (though it does affect pvp), it's the simple fact that all radars in game should be subject to ECM.

Edited May 12, 2021 by GGTharos

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

In light of F14 being invulnarable to missiles yet again due to its implementation of ECM , this should be bumped. 
 

[DD_Fenrir]

I can always tell Csgo’s posted cos of the highly fecund aroma that makes itself unwelcomingly apparent.

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

I can always tell Csgo’s posted cos of the highly fecund aroma that makes itself unwelcomingly apparent.

For me, it's the sudden, unrestrainable compulsion to start ramming my head into the nearest wall, over and over again.

Also, if anyone needs some demolition work done, please send me a PM, my forehead is available.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Northstar98

[near_blind]

I've come around on them, now it's a highly cherished form of entertainment. Each one is a portal to another world of paranoia and despair where the F-14 is this imposing super fighter with unimpeachable capabilities and prowess, whereas the Dart is this meek, tread upon shadow of an aircraft doomed to be out shot, out turned, and out fought at every opportunity by its betters. 

It sounds amazing. 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:07 PM, DD_Fenrir said:

I can always tell Csgo’s posted cos of the highly fecund aroma that makes itself unwelcomingly apparent.

I understand you enjoy your ECM shield while your own aircraft is completely immune to all ECM. 
However, it's been 3 years now. 

 

 

 

[Northstar98]

42 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I understand you enjoy your ECM shield while your own aircraft is completely immune to all ECM. 
However, it's been 3 years now.

Right now, in DCS, there's a grand total of 1 RADAR on a module that features the effects of track breaking (gate-pull off), yes, that's right 1.

And AFAIK, only the FC3 aircraft, the Hornet and the Mirage 2000C feature the effects of noise jamming/range denial.

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

There's also only a grand total of 1 ECM that uses a mechanic (blinking) that is known to cause issues with DCS. 
Why even implement that in the first place is a mystery to me, when you know it's troublesome but whatever it's there. 
So with that in mind, can you not see how it is a bit weird that a module has an ECM shield that breaks the game, while it's own radar is immune to all ECM  because "haven't gotten around to it" ? 
For three years ? 
 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Swordsman422]

I think it should be the last thing Heatblur fixes before the F-14 leaves EA.

I don't know what I've been doing wrong, but I have absolutely no trouble getting blown out of the sky by ARH and SARH missiles in the F-14 even with the jammer on and maneuvering. Nor have I had any trouble killing Tomcats with these same missiles. Hell, just before this post I was doing 1v1 F-14As against the AI. He was jamming, I was jamming, and our missiles both hit. How do I use the ECM to make myself invulnerable?

[Comstedt86]

8 hours ago, Swordsman422 said:

I think it should be the last thing Heatblur fixes before the F-14 leaves EA.

I don't know what I've been doing wrong, but I have absolutely no trouble getting blown out of the sky by ARH and SARH missiles in the F-14 even with the jammer on and maneuvering. Nor have I had any trouble killing Tomcats with these same missiles. Hell, just before this post I was doing 1v1 F-14As against the AI. He was jamming, I was jamming, and our missiles both hit. How do I use the ECM to make myself invulnerable?

Don't feed the troll

He made it his goal in life to blame HB/F-14 for all problems in DCS perhaps. I feel like TWS tracks are quite unreliable as is, either he is doing zero manouvering as his RWR lights up or the 54 is already active before he realizes. Who knows 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Why do you guys always assume i 'do bad' vs F14's ? For every 20 kills i make, i die once. 

I do have a problem with double standards. Even if the F14's ECM was NOT kaputt and doing weird stuff the way it is now, why would  you even implement ECM at all on your aircraft while at the same time keeping your own aircraft immune to all ECM for all eternity ? 
That is simply not right. 




 

[QuiGon]

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Why do you guys always assume i 'do bad' vs F14's ?

  Maybe because of your constant and often unreasanable flaming against the Tomcat.

  

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do have a problem with double standards. Even if the F14's ECM was NOT kaputt and doing weird stuff the way it is now, why would  you even implement ECM at all on your aircraft while at the same time keeping your own aircraft immune to all ECM for all eternity ? 
That is simply not right.

Ok, now this is incredbile rare: I think this is the first time I can agree with a comment of yours. It is indeed quite an unfair advantage, which I made a thread about a while ago (back then the Hornet did not had it's jamming effects modeled):

Now, to be fair, Heatblur said that jamming effects are on the to-do list and they just didn't got to it yet: 

On 11/27/2019 at 11:19 PM, Naquaii said:

The jamming effects for the AWG-9 are still on the list, we just haven't gotten to that yet.

Now one could argue that maybe the jamming capability should not have been implemented until effects for incoming jamming are also implemented, but holding back easy to implement features just for balancing is also not ideal.
The bottom line is: jamming effects are planned for the Tomcat (at least I'm not aware that this has changed). Just need to be patient.

Edited December 4, 2021 by QuiGon

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Why do you guys always assume i 'do bad' vs F14's ? For every 20 kills i make, i die once.

As with what QuiGon said, it's because you're such an anti-fanboy of it, something that seems fairly unique.

"The F-14 is completely immune to AMRAAMs, R-77s and R-27Rs" to name one example.

6 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I do have a problem with double standards. Even if the F14's ECM was NOT kaputt and doing weird stuff the way it is now, why would  you even implement ECM at all on your aircraft while at the same time keeping your own aircraft immune to all ECM for all eternity ?

Now here you do have a point, but as I said, there's so far a grand total of 1 module that has a RADAR that actually has the effects of a DECM technique (the type of ECM our aircraft actually use) simulated (track breaking) with a gate pull-off, that being the Mirage 2000C.

There's also a grand total of 1 module that has DECM implemented (again, track breaking), everything else is noise-jamming/range denial.

With the effects of jamming, the Tomcat might be more difficult than most; it has both a raw RADAR video and a processed RADAR display, with different presentations, as well as having separate pulse and pulse doppler modes and separate controls for ECCM.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Northstar98

[captain_dalan]

Wait guys, i need to make some popcorn! 

[Comstedt86]

If I understand correctly the HB F-14 has one of the most realistic implementations of how a radar transmits and receives information along with the 37?

Would that alao mean it would be the most afflicted radar if proper ECM is implemented compared to other simplified aircraft radars? 

[Swordsman422]

8 hours ago, Comstedt86 said:

Don't feed the troll

He's not the troll. He just has "concerns" over his "game experience" and "balance" being in danger because Heatblur is out to specifically ruin his experience.

No, no. I'm the troll, and I'm being so gleefully. And truthfully, whatever problem he's having with DCS, I'm not having and I'm choosing to say so in a snarky way.