reported Should heavy flak be effective below 3000ft?

[Nealius]

According to this period training film heavy flak, which I assume refers to 88s, can only be timed down to 3,000ft. Any lower and they won't fuze. 

 

However in DCS I frequently have 88s bursting around me all the way down to 400ft. 

 

Is the training film incorrect, or referring to something else?

[grafspee]

18 hours ago, Nealius said:

According to this period training film heavy flak, which I assume refers to 88s, can only be timed down to 3,000ft. Any lower and they won't fuze. 

 

However in DCS I frequently have 88s bursting around me all the way down to 400ft. 

 

Is the training film incorrect, or referring to something else?

So go for trees top alt then

Edited May 13, 2021 by grafspee

[Nealius]

36 minutes ago, grafspee said:

So go for trees top alt then

 

 

I do. Still have flak bursts at approx 100~150ft altitude. Depending on map, DCS trees can be close to 100ft tall. 

[grafspee]

23 minutes ago, Nealius said:

 

I do. Still have flak bursts at approx 100~150ft altitude. Depending on map, DCS trees can be close to 100ft tall. 

I think it is AI problem, it can see through trees and buildings, i encounter this many times. I was flying below tree tops and ai aaa kept shooting.

[Nealius]

They can see through clouds as well, but even so the flak should not be bursting below 3,000ft according to period training films. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Nealius

[BIGNEWY]

this is being discussed internally.

 

thanks

[JG13Wulf]

timed down ?
You mean by use of timer or other ?

Because, if it's a time fuze, then it could be shoot at 3000 ft of the gun but horizontally.

Except AAA is a bit cheating because it see and shoot trough tree, I feel it's able to shoot at every altitude. But when actually too close of the gun, it won't fire.

[Frederf]

Zt. Z. S/30 is a spring-wound mechanical time fuze with a safety feature preventing action below 2 seconds time of flight. With a muzzle velocity of 840 m/s this would correspond nominally with a ~1.5km minimum range.

 

There are firing tables which describe a minimum setting of fuze at "21" which results in a 0.52s time of fight for a range of 400m. The table is clearly for firing against ground targets. Either the round was altered to not have the 2s safety or there was an anticipation of such an ability. I do not believe it was possible to engage an air target with an air bursting round at less than 2 sec time of fight. Even if it was possible it would be terribly impractical as each fuze has to be set and then installed in the shell before firing. A battery rapidly changing their fuze times against a maneuvering fighter plane at any distance is nonsensical.

[Nealius]

4 hours ago, Frederf said:

A battery rapidly changing their fuze times against a maneuvering fighter plane at any distance is nonsensical.

 

That brings up another issue with the AAA modeling. In DCS the 88s can adjust their timing incredibly quickly. You can see flak trails climbing and descending in altitude along with their target. I've had to nerf missions to the point that there's only one or two flak guns because they are still hitting within a 100~200ft radius of maneuvering fighters. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Nealius

[JG13Wulf]

7 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

That brings up another issue with the AAA modeling. In DCS the 88s can adjust their timing incredibly quickly. You can see flak trails climbing and descending in altitude along with their target. I've had to nerf missions to the point that there's only one or two flak guns because they are still hitting within a 100~200ft radius of maneuvering fighters. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Frederf said:

Zt. Z. S/30 is a spring-wound mechanical time fuze with a safety feature preventing action below 2 seconds time of flight. With a muzzle velocity of 840 m/s this would correspond nominally with a ~1.5km minimum range.

 

There are firing tables which describe a minimum setting of fuze at "21" which results in a 0.52s time of fight for a range of 400m. The table is clearly for firing against ground targets. Either the round was altered to not have the 2s safety or there was an anticipation of such an ability. I do not believe it was possible to engage an air target with an air bursting round at less than 2 sec time of fight. Even if it was possible it would be terribly impractical as each fuze has to be set and then installed in the shell before firing. A battery rapidly changing their fuze times against a maneuvering fighter plane at any distance is nonsensical.

 

I didn't read a lot. I will later today. But P143 discuss the fuze setting. If I understand correctly, it's setted on the gun that modify the shell in it.

But I read it fast. I will read it again this evening.

 

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/PDFs/TME9-369A_Germ88.pdf

[grafspee]

half second of fuse time, wonder how often it detonate too early

[Nealius]

Half a second is still roughly 1,300ft given a muzzle velocity of around 2,600ft. 

[Frederf]

minimum airburst time is 2s

[Nealius]

11 hours ago, Frederf said:

minimum airburst time is 2s

 

Theoretically, does that mean it could burst down to 200ft in height if the slant range is within 3,000ft? I can understand that in theory, but in practice the gunners should not be able to accurately vector their aim onto maneuvering targets like that. It's as if the AI knows your velocity vector at all times and constantly adjusts the fuse time and aim to that. 

[Frederf]

Of course

[grafspee]

I also doubt that heavy flak is able to keep up with transversal velocity  of the target, unless it flying directly at flak position, even so how is capable of changing timings on rounds to match rapidly changing firing distance, maybe crew prepared numbers of rounds with wide range of pre set timings for close,low level engagements

And how Ai can know your position, speed if line of sight has obstacles.

Edited May 19, 2021 by grafspee

[LeCuvier]

Didn't the combination of Kommandogerät and Übertragungsgerät take care of that?

[grafspee]

3 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

Didn't the combination of Kommandogerät and Übertragungsgerät take care of that?

So projectile fuses were set via gun it self, that is nice tech there. If so shooting at fast closing target would be much easier.

But smaller cal AAA is based on direct hits, like 20mm 40mm. maybe Germans had magnetic fuses

Edited May 22, 2021 by grafspee

[Frederf]

I don't think flak 18 were set on the gun itself (as in loaded ready to fire). The fuze setting device was able to be connected to the command network but it was a separate machine located close by the firing battery. My understanding was that the network fed fuze data to the cutter which set the fuzes which were then removed from the fuze cutting machine and installed in the rounds which were then loaded to fire.

 

That would make reacting  to a bomber raid possible with only a few minutes notice but not real time adjustable fuze timing on a shot by shot basis. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Rolds]

In my experience heavy flak doesn't have a minimum fuse distance, this much is pretty clear from attempts to strafe the batteries. However I think some of the issues that make heavy flak feel too effective against fighters are:

 - seems to have line of sight through trees, even through terrain?

 - gunners have no issues identifying friend or foe and always let fly

 - gunners appear to be able to change the fuse distance unrealistically quickly

 - gunners can see through clouds (this one has been acknowledged)

[jeventy26]

On 6/6/2021 at 12:13 AM, Rolds said:

In my experience heavy flak doesn't have a minimum fuse distance, this much is pretty clear from attempts to strafe the batteries. However I think some of the issues that make heavy flak feel too effective against fighters are:

 - seems to have line of sight through trees, even through terrain?

 - gunners have no issues identifying friend or foe and always let fly

 - gunners appear to be able to change the fuse distance unrealistically quickly

 - gunners can see through clouds (this one has been acknowledged)

THIS ^^

[Vander]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:13 AM, Rolds said:

In my experience heavy flak doesn't have a minimum fuse distance, this much is pretty clear from attempts to strafe the batteries. However I think some of the issues that make heavy flak feel too effective against fighters are:

 

 - gunners appear to be able to change the fuse distance unrealistically quickly

 

THIS!

 

Trying to have some fun with the Mosquito, but it's impossible if there is any (heavy) flak around. Even at the lowest skill setting they often hit me with their first salvo and then when I turn and dive they are somehow able to time the fuses within split seconds and hit me again??? Afaik only the US had proximity fuses.

On 5/13/2021 at 1:03 PM, BIGNEWY said:

this is being discussed internally.

 

thanks

 

Also, please add a lower skill level to AAA so a mission designer can choose to make the mission outcome more dependent on player bombing skills than on the probability of AAA hitting you (which is now roughly > 95%). Clarification: By skill level I mean accuracy, which is now uncannily high even at lowest setting. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Vander

[JimBo*]

2 hours ago, Vander said:

 

 

Also, please add a lower skill level to AAA so a mission designer can choose to make the mission outcome more dependent on player bombing skills than on the probability of AAA hitting you (which is now roughly > 95%)

i don't know that skill setting for AAA in ME really has that much effect... i've only noticed reaction time and shots fired. only real way is to reduce number of heavy AAA and placing them so that they limit their firing arc and depression, by placing them by buildings, trees, lower elevations or placing static objects. then balancing it so that they aren't completely ineffective. it takes time... 

[Nealius]

What's interesting is that flak can't hit an A-20 flight straight and level at 10,000ft, yet will smack the hell out of maneuvering player aircraft with ease.