PSA: F-14 Performance/FM Development Status + Guided Discussion

[Baz000]

On the controversial topic of DLC... I BARELY, BARELY see the DLC used in this video... I think I only see it deflect up 1 or 2 times. What are you guys doing that you feel the need to use the DLC so excessively? 

 

WOW, also look how tight of a turn he can makes with the NWS and how slowly he can inch up... You certainly can't do that in DCS right now!

Edited November 17, 2021 by Baz000

[Callsign JoNay]

Here's one of my fav videos of DLC in action.

 

Some barely touch it, others are using it a lot.

[Baz000]

Yeah, I saw that one too... But it is two different circumstances.

landing on the boat vs ashore.

[draconus]

58 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

WOW, also look how tight of a turn he can makes with the NWS and how slowly he can inch up... You certainly can't do that in DCS right now!

I don't know what you're talking about - I can do both.

[Baz000]

yeah right

[TLTeo]

1 hour ago, Baz000 said:

What are you guys doing that you feel the need to use the DLC so excessively?

Mostly flying horribly, with occasional bits of exploding on the ramp.

[Baz000]

lol, I laugh because my friend in multiplayer did exactly that because his wings weren't swept forward. And just prior to that I hook-skipped into a 3 wire haha

Edited November 17, 2021 by Baz000

[Baz000]

Also, I just saw this! What appears to be a clean jet and 145ish knots... Granted, a tad bit faster than on-speed as shown by the HUD Staple (I'm guessing this is a D model or a upgraded HUD B model, etc...)

In all of my testing at MAX Trap in DCS, I never got above 140 knots as IAS for on-speed AOA.

 

  

On 11/11/2021 at 10:26 PM, Baz000 said:

Various IAS for on-speed AOA for me with max trap of 54,000 lbs (within 200 lbs margin) in the A model with following A-A loadouts, I used the mission editor with unlimited fuel so weight stayed constant (no fuel burn) to set the internal fuel weights for loadouts:

All tests with full gun ammo 200mm HEI, AN/ALE-39 set to 60 flares 0 chaff, fill LAU-138 with chaff selected. Chaff and Flare in the payload editor set to 140 chaff and 60 flare and greyed out so you can't change it.

***x4 AIM-9M, x4 AIM-7M, empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 51%)= 140 kts as indicated inside the cockpit

***without tanks and internal fuel set to 53%= 138 kts so 2 delta

 

x4 AIM-9M, x2 AIM-7M,(in the tunnel, sta 6 and 3) empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 58%)= 138 kts

without tanks and internal fuel set to 59%= 138 kts so 0 delta

 

x4 AIM-9M, x2 AIM-7M (in the tunnel, sta 4 and 5) empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 58%)= 138 kts

without tanks and internal fuel set to 59%= 138 kts so 0 delta

 

x2 AIM-9M, x2 AIM-7M (on wings, tunnel clean), empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 59%) and stations 5 and 3 pairs of Phoenix pallets removed= 138ish kts the IAS needle is slightly less than 140 kts

without tanks and internal fuel set to 61%= 138 kts, so a 2 kts delta

 

x2 AIM-9M, x2 AIM-7M, x4 AIM-54A-Mk47, empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 35%)= 138ish kts, definitely the needle is a tad below the 140 kts mark

without tanks and internal fuel set to 37%=138ish kts so a 0 delta

 

x2 AIM-9M, x3 AIM-7M (one in the tunnel), x2 AIM-54-Mk47, empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 44%)= 140 kts

without tanks and internal fuel set to 46%= 140 kts so 0 delta

 

x6 AIM-54-Mk47, empty external fuel tanks (internal fuel set to 31%)= 140 kts

without tanks and internal fuel set to 33%= 138 kts so 2 kts delta

 

In all tests the aircraft was configured full dirty as if landing onto the boat (SP, gear, flaps full, DLC, hook all engaged)

 

***= I thought I had found a possible 10 kts disparity in this test with no XT = 10 kts slower IAS but I took steps to see if I could reproduce the result and I wasn't able to. I was only able to replicate this exact result when I had my DLC disabled... What probably happened was I thought I had engaged DLC when I most likely did not, now when I test I take a brief look at external view to see if the aircraft is properly configured as desired.

Conclusion is the numbers have very little change between external tanks empty vs not equipped and internal fuel added to bring the plane to 54k gross total weight. (using the mission editor numbers at least)

The numbers i'm getting are hardly showing any significance between same gross weight on-speed AOA between having empty external tanks vs not having any tanks. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Baz000

[lunaticfringe]

3 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Also, I just saw this! What appears to be a clean jet and 145ish knots... Granted, a tad bit faster than on-speed as shown by the HUD Staple (I'm guessing this is a D model or a upgraded HUD B model, etc...)

In all of my testing at MAX Trap in DCS, I never got above 140 knots as IAS for on-speed AOA.

 

  

 

 

Few things:

1.  Yes, that's a D HUD.  
2.  Max trap being 54,000 lbs gross, in a B or D you're like 140-141 knots on the kneeboard chart with neutral DLC.
3. Look at how low on the bracket she is.
4. Notice her rate of descent (right side under the altitude) from trying to get down from a high ball- like 200+ FPM over nominal.

It's all cumulatively coming together to push the jet's speed up.  Better altitude coming into the groove and not having to chase, and with a nose higher in the bracket, it's on the number.  It's just the amount of variance to being on speed and on-altitude that's doing it, and you can note it come down just by getting things back closer to control (drops from 147 to 145 quite rapidly, but then goes back up as the nose lowers). 

 

[Baz000]

I know this was for the F-15C but I found it interesting to see in the patch notes lol because of the very discussion we had about the F-14 on here with different stores loadings.

DCS Flaming Cliffs by Eagle Dynamics

• F-15C. External stores do not seem to generate a drag penalty - fixed.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Baz000

[Comstedt86]

9 hours ago, Baz000 said:

I know this was for the F-15C but I found it interesting to see in the patch notes lol because of the very discussion we had about the F-14 on here with different stores loadings.

DCS Flaming Cliffs by Eagle Dynamics

• F-15C. External stores do not seem to generate a drag penalty - fixed.

 

Damn, no more spaceships? 

 

Was kind of hilarious. 

[Slant]

On 11/17/2021 at 10:34 PM, Baz000 said:

On the controversial topic of DLC... I BARELY, BARELY see the DLC used in this video... I think I only see it deflect up 1 or 2 times. What are you guys doing that you feel the need to use the DLC so excessively? 

WOW, also look how tight of a turn he can makes with the NWS and how slowly he can inch up... You certainly can't do that in DCS right now!

 

Not flying the groove properly is what many people are doing. It's hard, though, so I think we shouldn't judge too harshly.

About inching up, I find that having a low (but not idle) power setting and leaving it constant and adjusting speed with brake pressure yields the most precise results for me. As for tight turns, full NWS deflection, inside circle toebrake and outside circle engine only tends to give you a pretty small turn circle with your inside main gear as the pivot point.

It helps to have a director give you indications, of course. In DCS you kinda have to do this in F2, otherwise it's going to be risky to move around the edge like that.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Slant

[Airhunter]

I really think or have the impression rather, that DLC usage really depends on individual technique, burble strenght and maybe some other factors. There is literally plenty of boat footage out there to show both types of pilots. Obviously no one is flying the ball with just DLC but a few bumps of DLC depending on burble strenght doesn't seem like something not practical or unusual. The system was implemented for a good reason. 

[Baz000]

4 hours ago, Slant said:

Not flying the groove properly is what many people are doing. It's hard, though, so I think we shouldn't judge too harshly.

About inching up, I find that having a low (but not idle) power setting and leaving it constant and adjusting speed with brake pressure yields the most precise results for me. As for tight turns, full NWS deflection, inside circle toebrake and outside circle engine only tends to give you a pretty small turn circle with your inside main gear as the pivot point.

It helps to have a director give you indications, of course. In DCS you kinda have to do this in F2, otherwise it's going to be risky to move around the edge like that.

 

Pretty sure that you think that is what is happening currently in DCS, but if I have provided compelling proof here that it is not emulating the ground movement behavior of the real aircraft even in the slightest. Pay no attention to the [NO BUG] flag as it was added prior to my response and is in relation to the OP's post.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Baz000

[draconus]

36 minutes ago, Baz000 said:

ground movement behavior

The ground friction and handling is on the to-do list - there's nothing to prove.

[Baz000]

Except that the nose wheel can't move when the aircraft is stationary, where as on the real aircraft it can... And, this certainly effects the turning radius of the aircraft.

Again, not a large issue right now as we have the benefit of empty space... But once these carrier decks get crowded to realistic levels it will become one.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Baz000

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Baz000 said:

Except that the nose wheel can't move when the aircraft is stationary, were as on the real aircraft it can... And, this certainly effects the turning radius of the aircraft.

Again, not a large issue right now as we have the benefit of empty space... But once these carrier decks get crowded to realistic levels it will become one.

 

This is something we may be able to fix prior to ground handling improvement, or separately from it. No promise for now though, it will be done as feasible. We'll also revisit suspension and the likes and it may fit there.

[Callsign JoNay]

Ground handling improvement? Yes please.

[r4y30n]

As for tight turns, full NWS deflection, inside circle toebrake and outside circle engine only tends to give you a pretty small turn circle with your inside main gear as the pivot point.

NATOPS recommends not using toe brakes for min radius turns because the inboard main gear will roll backward at full steering and braking that wheel ends up increasing radius.

[draconus]

On 11/20/2021 at 6:03 AM, r4y30n said:

NATOPS recommends not using toe brakes for min radius turns because the inboard main gear will roll backward at full steering and braking that wheel ends up increasing radius.

...but in DCS: Tomcat we have only 45° deflection and it does help.

Edit: actually more than that, almost 60°.

Edited November 22, 2021 by draconus

[Baz000]

You guys constantly making me break out this NATOPS PDF to refer to lol...

Edited November 20, 2021 by Baz000

[Baz000]

3 hours ago, r4y30n said:

NATOPS recommends not using toe brakes for min radius turns because the inboard main gear will roll backward at full steering and braking that wheel ends up increasing radius.

You are correct, sir (as far as NATOPS says)

The toe brakes thing is again another Hornet thing lol 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Baz000

[r4y30n]

...but in DCS: Tomcat we have only 45° deflection and it does help.

I never noticed… Is it a DCS limitation? Is the Hornet similarly handicapped?

[Baz000]

6 minutes ago, r4y30n said:

I never noticed… Is it a DCS limitation? Is the Hornet similarly handicapped?

Maximum NWS deflection in the real Tomcat is 70 degrees.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Baz000

[Slant]

5 hours ago, r4y30n said:

NATOPS recommends not using toe brakes for min radius turns because the inboard main gear will roll backward at full steering and braking that wheel ends up increasing radius.

Ah, interesting. Thanks for pointing that out! I didn't know that.