Air Refueling Cheat

[JUICE-AWG]

@September You can do it with your current gear, you just have to adjust the curves and deadzone to meet your controller capabilities!

[TheCoyoteHunter]

On the lighter side of things guys, I think we can all agree on this...

Below is a clip showing similarities between a jet's fuel state after prolonged flight, and the young fellas juice sippy cup.

 

 

 

[Черный Дракул]

15 hours ago, JUICE said:

You can do it with your current gear, you just have to adjust the curves and deadzone to meet your controller capabilities!

Yup. Then he'll have to pause the game and switch response curves to their nav/fight values. And switch these all back when he decides to do AAR again. I think some feature is missing here.

Also, he's a newbie, so I highly doubt he can do that -- I reckon he doesn't have a clue on how to approach the whole thing. 

[JUICE-AWG]

He should surely do the instant action missions so he can pause it...good call!

[shagrat]

On 6/29/2021 at 1:44 AM, SharpeXB said:

That’s hilarious. So selecting Unlimited Fuel isn’t realistic but watching your plane fly and refuel itself is?

If you’re going to go that route DCS already has an “Easy AAR” feature. Just select Unlimited Fuel, go to the Mission Planner and give yourself whatever level you think is sorta realistic. Then while on your mission, just pretend you’re low on fuel, navigate over to the tanker, maybe even try to connect. Then pretend you’re all topped off and carry on. Literally no different than what you’re suggesting except it doesn’t require any work from ED and it would be more immersive as gameplay.  

That's definitely not my preferred solution, as it doesn't help with learning and improving, but at least an Auto Refuel cheat would be vastly superior to the "unlimited fuel". First of all as has been explained, it requires you to consider and manage(!) weight. Second it keeps your performance in line with your buddies in multiplayer not using unlimited fuel. Third it teaches you flying in a way to achieve mission goals,reach the Tanker and when is a good point in time to refuel etc.

Btw. still waiting for an answer to how you recognize the assist options another client is using as your main argument is "it affects multiplayer"???

[shagrat]

On 6/29/2021 at 8:14 PM, Exorcet said:

That's not an example. It doesn't even really make sense as a reply to my post. You claimed magic refills and long hoses are seen as realistic by some. Where has anyone said this?

 

  

This has been suggested before and it's one way to create an assist. Another good thing about this method, or some kind of auto refuel, is that it's useful for mission testing. I'd be fine with this.

I would prefer the assists that make the connect and keeping connected easier, especially if they were adjustable, so you can improve and gradually dial the assists down.

The Auto Refuel would be cool for quick mission tests, definitely, but not as useful as a training aid.

Also the ideas with the overlays and indicators are a pretty good idea.

In addition with a better tanker/boom operator AI that talks to you and advise, rather than just "break away" and "return pre-contact".

[shagrat]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:26 PM, Gripes323 said:

 

Well, this wouldn't cut the mustard so... moving on.

Actually that the solution to the problem. Each client decides to use or not to use the assists he requires inside certain limits (no 10*10 meter "snap" to receptacle) and everyone in a multiplayer flight can participate in complex mission and even train AAR long term, while the experienced players use no assists and refuel as usual... Win-win for everyone.

[shagrat]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:23 PM, SharpeXB said:

There should be an incentive in the game to learn something as difficult as AAR. The reward is that you get to experience greater realism, more features, greater variety of missions etc. 

It would be even better if the "game" would teach you how to proper and realistic do air to air refueling... and it would be fantastic if it could hold your hands and correct and point out the little mistakes, like your approach angle flying the nose to the boom, instead of holding the plane in the box and the operator putting the boom in. Or like Jester is giving you guidance on your position and speed...

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

at least an Auto Refuel cheat would be vastly superior to the "unlimited fuel"

No because ED would have to spend money to make “Easy AAR”. Which they already said they aren’t doing. 
 

if you put the same time and effort towards learning AAR as you do continually asking for it to be easier you’d be an expert at it by now. 

[Tippis]

44 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No because ED would have to spend money to make “Easy AAR”. Which they already said they aren’t doing.

No, they haven't.

They've said that they don't have any plans at this time.

 

And given how often "not planned" things have been added to the game, that means nothing.

 

Also, nice non sequitur. Just because ED have said that they have no plans to do it doesn't mean that auto refuel wouldn't be vastly superior to unlimited fuel. There is no causal connection between the two. So that ridiculous fallacy doesn't really do a very good job of disproving that particular statement.

 

44 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

if you put the same time and effort towards learning AAR as you do continually asking for it to be easier you’d be an expert at it by now. 

Conversely, if you put as much time and effort towards learning AAR as you do continually trolling the wishlist forum, in spite of the moderators telling you not to on numerous occasions, you'd be moderately good at it too. Or possibly even worse at it, since you shown what happens when you don't have the proper learning and teaching tools available and you end up with all kinds of ugly training scars from the undirected guesswork of the self-taught.

 

 

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, shagrat said:

I would prefer the assists that make the connect and keeping connected easier, especially if they were adjustable, so you can improve and gradually dial the assists down.

The Auto Refuel would be cool for quick mission tests, definitely, but not as useful as a training aid.

Also the ideas with the overlays and indicators are a pretty good idea.

In addition with a better tanker/boom operator AI that talks to you and advise, rather than just "break away" and "return pre-contact".

There are definitely quite a few ways to add AAR assistance to the game. Should ED ever decide that they are ready for it, I'd encourage them to take part in the discussion so a solution that works for everyone can be reached. As is often said, the more options the better.

[shagrat]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

No because ED would have to spend money to make “Easy AAR”. Which they already said they aren’t doing. 
 

if you put the same time and effort towards learning AAR as you do continually asking for it to be easier you’d be an expert at it by now. 

I am asking because it will help future customers and newcomers. I currently train with focus on learning it correct and not just "gittin gud"... Still it's not the point of the discussion to give me personally a cheat, but to improve DCS and keep it accessible for people with not enough money to invest in premium hardware, have lost limbs and need to work with limitations, older people struggling and newbies.

 

I find it funny that rather admitting, that "you have no idea how to notice if anyone uses rudder assist or auto start-up" and thus your point of "it affects multiplayer" is total bogus, you now move on to "Effort from ED will cost money" and they said they "Aren't doing it"... So let's see: Big Newy said "There is currently no intent of adding such a feature". 

Let's ignore the fact that in the last year's a LOT of things that were "not planned" or "announced" where added to DCS per customer request, internal feedback and ideas, or from listening to discussions like this one. While the F-16C and the AH-64D are the more obvious ones, the invisible FARP (rearm/refuel zone), critical damage and effects to ground units, ability to place helos and planes cold and dark on the map or options to remove cockpit reflections, etc. are more fitting to prove clearly, "not currently" is far from "will never do".

The other thing is, ED said clearly they want to rework/optimize AAR and Tanker behavior along with the comms etc.  So they are very aware, that AAR currently has room for improvement and at willing to invest ressources at some point. What better point in time could be more fitting to consider and integrate the assists we discuss here? When someone is already intimately accustomed to the code and workings of the AAR part, it will take the least amount of time and ressources to evaluate and implement it. As for the "cost", I am sure the positive effect of keeping newcomers interested in modules that benefit from AAR, enabling more people to enjoy complex online multiplayer missions without investing in premium hardware and newcomers not getting spooked by the "git gud" bullshit, will have a financial benefit, far outweighing the invested effort.

To sum it up, it seems the real reason you so adamantly oppose this feature is your fear of "lesser pilots" managing AAR with assists and not needing to suffer the pains you went through so making your "achievement" less cool?

Because that's actually the only reason I can see, that would make sense.

 

[Exorcet]

38 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

its not about the hardware, its 100% about skill, just like RL pilots.

That's not right in DCS nor in reality. No air force is using biplanes anymore if they can afford better for very clear reasons. Equipment matters. There are some people with either exceptional ability, or the patience and time to figure out how to be successful with terrible equipment, but that's not going to be everyone. Sure, someone can AAR inverted with an Xbox controller. That has no bearing on this thread. Xbox controllers are unrealistic controls compared to HOTAS, they are generally inferior controls compared to HOTAS and in all likelyhood will require more time on the part of the user to develop skills, and even if you master a particular skill on a controller that doesn't mean you're proficient at other tasks.

 

Unless something changed this morning and the variation in ability between individuals has vanished, a one off extreme example is pretty meaningless.

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

That's not right in DCS nor in reality. No air force is using biplanes anymore if they can afford better for very clear reasons. Equipment matters. There are some people with either exceptional ability, or the patience and time to figure out how to be successful with terrible equipment, but that's not going to be everyone. Sure, someone can AAR inverted with an Xbox controller. That has no bearing on this thread. Xbox controllers are unrealistic controls compared to HOTAS, they are generally inferior controls compared to HOTAS and in all likelyhood will require more time on the part of the user to develop skills, and even if you master a particular skill on a controller that doesn't mean you're proficient at other tasks.

 

Unless something changed this morning and the variation in ability between individuals has vanished, a one off extreme example is pretty meaningless.

 

 I hate to break this to you. 50% of all people are below "average" by definition. IRL, actual fighter pilots are washed out if they literally aren't the best of the best like 99.9999% of the population. Thats what it is, like it or not. If you want some 10th percentile goober to be ace DCS, god be with you. Yes I get it getting the sub 50% goobers into the game means they buy stuff, its great for ED. But it sucks for ecosystem overall. Thats what it is. 

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

Sure, but a way to train with a) instructions, guidance, proper feedback and corrections of your errors and b) a way to gradually learn and still get a positive result at times could help a lot and reduce the amount of time needed to practice.

I know for sure, because the rudder assist helped me tremendously to get my feel for the Bf.109 when it came out. Not auto-rudder, but the assist. I dialed it down to 50% and thus could keep the nose straight enough and got it of the ground consistently. I then dialed the assist down after my anticipation for torque and stall got better and after two weeks I could consistently take off without rudder assist.

 

It won't. Literally nothing ED will do can actually help me. I realize that, understand that, internalize that,  and therfore practice more. I don't want "sklill replacment" I need "skill" Its not that hard really. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Exorcet]

36 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

 I hate to break this to you. 50% of all people are below "average" by definition.

 

Then we agree with each other. Not everyone is going to master AAR on an Xbox controller, let alone a HOTAS.

Quote

IRL, actual fighter pilots are washed out if they literally aren't the best of the best like 99.9999% of the population. Thats what it is, like it or not. If you want some 10th percentile goober to be ace DCS, god be with you. Yes I get it getting the sub 50% goobers into the game means they buy stuff, its great for ED. But it sucks for ecosystem overall. Thats what it is.

And the sim aims to not model the strict requirements to be a pilot. The rest of your post I don't follow. Assists aren't just for subpar pilots. And skill itself isn't one dimensional. You can be at combat and bad at AAR specifically. I don't think there is anything wrong with "bad" players in DCS either. They won't automatically demand that DCS becomes an arcade game and even if some do they will be in their own world of simple game settings never bothering you or me.

[Harlikwin]

25 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Then we agree with each other. Not everyone is going to master AAR on an Xbox controller, let alone a HOTAS.

And the sim aims to not model the strict requirements to be a pilot. The rest of your post I don't follow. Assists aren't just for subpar pilots. And skill itself isn't one dimensional. You can be at combat and bad at AAR specifically. I don't think there is anything wrong with "bad" players in DCS either. They won't automatically demand that DCS becomes an arcade game and even if some do they will be in their own world of simple game settings never bothering you or me.

 

Lets be 10000% honest. Compared to real life, DCS IS an arcade game (LITERALLY, .0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of humans (or less) are actual fighter pilots [correct me if I didn't use enough zeros]). There are a million, or billion things it doesn't model, or can't model well, or at all. Lets be 1000% intellectually honest about that. Stuff like AAR is one of the very few things it might be able to model realistically, say compared to things like FM's, Radar, Missiles, Ground attack and so forth that it does a piss poor job at modeling "accurately". So IF AAR is "hard" in DCS I'm 1000% "good" with that. 

 

And really thats not hero worshiping fighter pilots, they are mortal, they just put the time and effort in to learn how to do the "hard" stuff. And piss on the random console gamer with his X-box controller and 20 min of time that can't do spend a few hours to learn what real people have to spend years to master.

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Exorcet]

10 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Lets be 10000% honest. Compared to real life, DCS IS an arcade game (LITERALLY, .0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of humans (or less) are actual fighter pilots [correct me if I didn't use enough zeros]). There are a million, or billion things it doesn't model, or can't model well, or at all. Lets be 1000% intellectually honest about that.

 

 

Eh, I consider the difference between something being actually arcade and something being a simulator for entertainment purposes. But I understand the point. I don't call DCS arcade and I don't think that's a fair description of it, but I realize that as an entertainment product with modules sold for less than $100 based on material that may be heavily classified and that has to run on home PC's, there are limitations.

Quote

Stuff like AAR is one of the very few things it might be able to model realistically, say compared to things like FM's, Radar, Missiles, Ground attack and so forth that it does a piss poor job at modeling "accurately". So IF AAR is "hard" in DCS I'm 1000% "good" with that. 

 

And really thats not hero worshiping fighter pilots, they are mortal, they just put the time and effort in to learn how to do the "hard" stuff. And piss on the random console gamer with his X-box controller and 20 min of time that can't do spend a few hours to learn what real people have to spend years to master.

Good that AAR is realistic (well there is still room to improve, but yeah it's a fairly good representation as is). I want that. I absolutely do not want to artificially lower the difficulty of AAR. The same goes for every other aspect of the sim. Hence why I'm for assists - because they don't have to be turned on. Everyone gets to make the choice to use them or not.

 

The accessibility they provide then goes on to benefit me in other ways. As a mission maker right now I have to really consider if I want AAR in my public missions because I don't know who is going to be flying them. If there as an AAR assist then I could assume that everyone would be fine with missions requiring AAR and it would simply my decision process.

 

Were I a player struggling to AAR, then the assist might serve as a motivation to practice more. One of the issues with refueling in DCS is that the maps are smaller than aircraft's combat radius. That serves as a bit of a disincentive to practice it because, when are you going to use it? That's starting to change now with maps getting bigger, and I suppose for endurance missions the map size doesn't really matter, but a lot of content in DCS doesn't give you a reason to practice AAR regularly, which can make any kind of practice frustrating if it's slow going picking up the skill. Assists could cut down on the learning curve and make AAR more worth people's possibly limited time to spend flying.

 

We're not all pilots. We don't literally get paid to practice refueling in the air. If we are getting paid, that usually eats up most of our week. So no wonder the real pilots do it better. We start off with a handicap, so what's wrong with trying to leveling things with an assist?

[shagrat]

8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

 I hate to break this to you. 50% of all people are below "average" by definition. IRL, actual fighter pilots are washed out if they literally aren't the best of the best like 99.9999% of the population. Thats what it is, like it or not. If you want some 10th percentile goober to be ace DCS, god be with you. Yes I get it getting the sub 50% goobers into the game means they buy stuff, its great for ED. But it sucks for ecosystem overall. Thats what it is. 

 

It won't. Literally nothing ED will do can actually help me. I realize that, understand that, internalize that,  and therfore practice more. I don't want "sklill replacment" I need "skill" Its not that hard really. 

 

I would like assistance to help compensate all the things DCS is missing, making it harder than in real life (no peripheral vision, no feel for aircraft movement, no communication with the tanker, callouts of turns, etc.) and the lack of a professional instructor pilot.

Keep in mind how dumb of an idea it is from a commercial perspective to "flush out" 99.9999% of your potential customers... which isn't the largest group of players to begin with.

Especially if a considerable amount of customers are looking for a certain amount of entertainment, and not a full time military pilot career, where your only job is to "gid gud" and not flushed out by the system... I don't have issues with people treating DCS as a close alternative to a real military career, but I find it unacceptable that some try to "enforce" a rigorous selection program on all customers simply to feed their ego...

Edited July 1, 2021 by shagrat
Typos corrected

[shagrat]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

The accessibility they provide then goes on to benefit me in other ways. As a mission maker right now I have to really consider if I want AAR in my public missions because I don't know who is going to be flying them. If there as an AAR assist then I could assume that everyone would be fine with missions requiring AAR and it would simply my decision process.

Another point is the need test fly missions during creation.

If you are not proficient enough at AAR you can't test the timing, tanker setup etc. consistently, as well as you usually tend to simply leave it out...

8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Lets be 10000% honest. Compared to real life, DCS IS an arcade game (LITERALLY, .0000000000000000000000000000000000001% of humans (or less) are actual fighter pilots [correct me if I didn't use enough zeros]). There are a million, or billion things it doesn't model, or can't model well, or at all. Lets be 1000% intellectually honest about that. Stuff like AAR is one of the very few things it might be able to model realistically, say compared to things like FM's, Radar, Missiles, Ground attack and so forth that it does a piss poor job at modeling "accurately". So IF AAR is "hard" in DCS I'm 1000% "good" with that. 

 

And really thats not hero worshiping fighter pilots, they are mortal, they just put the time and effort in to learn how to do the "hard" stuff. And piss on the random console gamer with his X-box controller and 20 min of time that can't do spend a few hours to learn what real people have to spend years to master.

 

 

 

 

Well, nobody is trying to take that away. You can simply decide to leave ALL the assists off. You are not forced to do auto start-up, nor are you required to have rudder assist dialed in, or deactivate sun glare to make spotting enemies easier. And that's all in DCS since forever.

I feel really sorry for you, that you couldn't cut into the 0.000000001% and make it to a fighter pilot career IRL, but there is no need to make everyone else miserable.

DCS is capable of delivering you the "harder than real life" experience, while offering other people with less time or other priorities a still challenging, but manageable home PC simulation. That's why I can't see any problem, other than personal preference. As an optional client side assistance similar to rudder assist for the warbirds or auto start-up does not affect anything, I don't get it, sorry.

All pseudo arguments were based on (deliberate?) misunderstanding of how the assistance would work.

[September]

On 6/30/2021 at 1:05 PM, Черный Дракул said:

Yup. Then he'll have to pause the game and switch response curves to their nav/fight values. And switch these all back when he decides to do AAR again. I think some feature is missing here.

Also, he's a newbie, so I highly doubt he can do that -- I reckon he doesn't have a clue on how to approach the whole thing. 

I have been playing the game for at least or over a year and yes I do know how to adjust curves but it is simply impractical to go in and change them just to refuel, then change them back afterwards.

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, September said:

I have been playing the game for at least or over a year and yes I do know how to adjust curves but it is simply impractical to go in and change them just to refuel, then change them back afterwards.

 

Don't see an issue with refueling, you don't have to change any curves to do it. Just practice and patience, yoga helps.

[Archduke]

I can't really see from a players perspective why having an AAR assist or refueling cheat would be a problem. It's not like it helps you winning dogfights in multiplayer.

 

For me having to AAR instantly rules out a mission/campaign. I'm simple unable to do AAR atm. Maybe with enough practice that may change. But I've got a quite time demanding job and DCS is only one hobby. If I find time for DCS there are more important things to learn for me than AAR. I realize that's my own problem but from a business perspective it might make sense for ED to add useful assists that make this game more accessible, thus widening the customer base.

[Harlikwin]

15 hours ago, Furiz said:

 

Don't see an issue with refueling, you don't have to change any curves to do it. Just practice and patience, yoga helps.

 

I mean curves can help but that should be a part of your general plane setup. 

[Furiz]

46 minutes ago, Archduke said:

I can't really see from a players perspective why having an AAR assist or refueling cheat would be a problem. It's not like it helps you winning dogfights in multiplayer.

 

For me having to AAR instantly rules out a mission/campaign. I'm simple unable to do AAR atm. Maybe with enough practice that may change. But I've got a quite time demanding job and DCS is only one hobby. If I find time for DCS there are more important things to learn for me than AAR. I realize that's my own problem but from a business perspective it might make sense for ED to add useful assists that make this game more accessible, thus widening the customer base.

 

 

So basically you are doing missions that have no AAR cause you don't want to spend time to learn AAR, cause you would rather do explosions. So you have unlimited fuel option, what is the problem with that?

 

Why you don't want to spend time to learn AAR instead of doing missions is beyond me,

 

but what I did was just that, I got into a campaign that required AAR on almost every mission, and I got pissed off cause I couldn't AAR and complete the campaign, but that didn't make me ask for ED to create cheats, instead I said I'm not doing a single bomb drop until I learn AAR,

and I went and kept doing AAR training mission until I managed to do it, I spent time to learn it and I did it. It is not science fiction, it requires time and training.

 

Since this is a simulation, it also simulates AAR, that's why I really don't see why would we have a cheat for that. I is very much rewarding when you finally do it, it makes your flying experience complete.

 

I don't want to drive people away from DCS but this is not arcade game. There are lots of training videos with really nice advices, watch them and practice... so many people in DCS actually did AAR, so can you!

[Archduke]

29 minutes ago, Furiz said:

 

 

So basically you are doing missions that have no AAR cause you don't want to spend time to learn AAR, cause you would rather do explosions. So you have unlimited fuel option, what is the problem with that?

 

Why you don't want to spend time to learn AAR instead of doing missions is beyond me,

 

but what I did was just that, I got into a campaign that required AAR on almost every mission, and I got pissed off cause I couldn't AAR and complete the campaign, but that didn't make me ask for ED to create cheats, instead I said I'm not doing a single bomb drop until I learn AAR,

and I went and kept doing AAR training mission until I managed to do it, I spent time to learn it and I did it. It is not science fiction, it requires time and training.

 

Since this is a simulation, it also simulates AAR, that's why I really don't see why would we have a cheat for that. I is very much rewarding when you finally do it, it makes your flying experience complete.

 

I don't want to drive people away from DCS but this is not arcade game. There are lots of training videos with really nice advices, watch them and practice... so many people in DCS actually did AAR, so can you!

Yes, I get what you mean. But this is your choice. I love to fly but I simply do not have the time to practice AAR and everything else that would make me a real fighter pilot. This is not about not wanting to learn AAR, I need to choose what to do with the limited time I have. If you’ve got more time on your hands, I‘m happy for you.

 

After all this is not some binary thing, either arcade game or „true“ simulation. It simply makes sense to implement assists that make the learning curve less steep and enable more users to learn gradually instead of being turned away.

 

 Let me put it like this: I was a professional violinist and so of course I’m able to play even the hardest orchestra scores, because I’ve practised several hours every day for two decades. That is my standard in music. But there are lots of amateur musicians and orchestras who simply play for fun. They will never amount to anything according to my professional standards, sometimes they even cheat and make some parts easier. Now, should I simply tell them to practice, practice, practice because they aren’t good enough (and won’t ever be because they aren’t gifted enough and don’t have enough time to practice)? Or should I be glad that they are happy making music?

 

 So simply let’s have choice: For you realistic AAR, for me some assists.