It’s time to end the never ending AI vertical loop.

[Mike_Romeo]

7 hours ago, Warmbrak said:

It is disappointing to see that over a year later the AI situation still hasn't changed much.

Out of curiosity, are you using the DCS open beta version or stable one ? Asking because the infinite loops are supposed to be patched out with DCS 2.8.0

A new standard flight model for AI is devlopment that should improve the way the AI flies. ED only has limited resources and man power so this will take a lot of time:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/
 

Also many AI updates were released over the year.
 

 

[Warmbrak]

Thanks for all the links; I do watch his channel but didn't look at all those videos. 

I fly open beta. To be fair what I am seeing may not be loops but they are definitely spiral climbs with a huge energy advantage that sees the AI outrunning and outperforming me all the time. Even if I don't try to climb with the AI and turn horisontal instead I still can't match it. Flying against humans in the past I can easily work out what I did wrong when it happened, but the AI seems to employ "aerial magic" sometimes.

A year or so ago I tried the viper against an AI MiG-21 and got my butt kicked a few times - those were probably more akin to vertical loops now that I think about it. At recruit level difficulty I would expect AI to make mistakes and not have near perfect energy management. The AI flying into the ground after a few minutes is also not right - I would rather see the the AI try to disengage and RTB rather than crashing into the ocean, possibly due to fuel starvation.

I don't expect AI to perform like humans but there are basic things that can be introduced to make them appear more realistic.

I'll catch up on those videos, thanks again.

[Mike_Romeo]

 

[SparrowLT]

I have seen a F-5E AI outfuel a F-15C on MP PvE while doing barrel rolls jinking at over 650knots.. when the eagle fueled out after chasing it for like 10m the F-5E then climbed at 700 knots to angels 30 and rtb supesonic..

 

it was utterly ridicolous..

 

And yesterday in  MP PvE again a guy in a Viper and me in a Hornet intercepted a 21 that was closing on the main pack .. it just began doing 1 circle fights at over 600K .. i couldnt keep up with it in the Hornet neither could the Viper guy... until 5m later it just plumeted to the ground presumibly for fuel starvation (unlike the magical F-5 from above)

 

I didnt tried the MIG-21 on DCS but im pretty sure it cant outrate both a Hornet and a Viper doing way over 500 knots

[irisono]

The completely unrealistic UFO behavior of some aircraft reduces DCS to a ridiculous, arcade-like children's game. Modules like Mig-21, Mig-15, Su-25, F-86 or F-5 seem to be exempt from all physical rules. Their speed, acceleration capacity, g-force limits, climb performance and thus their maneuverability are presented far above the values of even modern high-performance fighters. It's actually a pity since DCS has an excellent reputation among combat simulators when it comes to system simulation. They provide exemplary solutions for their FF modules in radar operation, hydraulics, electrics, engine control, etc. They are also top class in terms of ME, GUI and graphics. But their aircraft AI is the worst that combat simulators offer today. Older sims or even arcade titles perform better in this respect. It's such a shame because this AI is completely killing immersion for SP players and SP represent the majority of DCS' customers. The complaints, especially from the SP community, are constantly increasing. For years, DCS has been shrugging its shoulders at this tragedy and putting us off with daring promises.

[SharpeXB]

It would be great if the AI aircraft used the same FM as the player although that would probably be too demanding for some hardware and/or limit the numbers you could put in a scenario. You couldn’t have skies full of B-17s in WWII etc. Maybe with multi-core and Vulkan fully implemented that could free up some resources for this to happen. 

[Hiob]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would be great if the AI aircraft used the same FM as the player although that would probably be too demanding for some hardware and/or limit the numbers you could put in a scenario. You couldn’t have skies full of B-17s in WWII etc. Maybe with multi-core and Vulkan fully implemented that could free up some resources for this to happen. 

You could limit the application of the "player FM" to AI fighters. It's probably a lesser problem with bigger Aicraft like bombers. And the FM could still be simplified in certain ways. I think the most important part is energy retention and loss.

 

[darkman222]

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would be great if the AI aircraft used the same FM as the player although that would probably be too demanding

I bet an AI cant fly a  highly complex FM like for example the one of an F14. There will be a lot of "counter computation" for FM. I guess its not that easy. These expectations are way too high. But still it is very unsatisfying if the AI can cheat and you cant.

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, irisono said:

The completely unrealistic UFO behavior of some aircraft reduces DCS to a ridiculous, arcade-like children's game. Modules like Mig-21, Mig-15, Su-25, F-86 or F-5 seem to be exempt from all physical rules. Their speed, acceleration capacity, g-force limits, climb performance and thus their maneuverability are presented far above the values of even modern high-performance fighters. It's actually a pity since DCS has an excellent reputation among combat simulators when it comes to system simulation. They provide exemplary solutions for their FF modules in radar operation, hydraulics, electrics, engine control, etc. They are also top class in terms of ME, GUI and graphics. But their aircraft AI is the worst that combat simulators offer today. Older sims or even arcade titles perform better in this respect. It's such a shame because this AI is completely killing immersion for SP players and SP represent the majority of DCS' customers. The complaints, especially from the SP community, are constantly increasing. For years, DCS has been shrugging its shoulders at this tragedy and putting us off with daring promises.

Not noticed any problems with the F86.

While flying the F86 I'll never get even the slightest possibility of hitting a MiG15. But in the MiG15. I can take out 2 F86s on ACE.

Not noticed anything wrong with the F5 either.

For me it's the MiG15 and 21 only that seems to behave completely unrealistically.

 

While in WW2 is the opposite the AI almost always just start doing a lazy circle waiting to get pulled into your gunsight to die.

[irisono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb darkman222:

I bet an AI cant fly a  highly complex FM like for example the one of an F14. There will be a lot of "counter computation" for FM. I guess its not that easy. These expectations are way too high. But still it is very unsatisfying if the AI can cheat and you cant.

These are all cheap excuses. Other combat simulators, some economically priced or even older titles show the way.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Gunfreak:

Not noticed any problems with the F86.

While flying the F86 I'll never get even the slightest possibility of hitting a MiG15. But in the MiG15. I can take out 2 F86s on ACE.

Not noticed anything wrong with the F5 either.

For me it's the MiG15 and 21 only that seems to behave completely unrealistically.

 

While in WW2 is the opposite the AI almost always just start doing a lazy circle waiting to get pulled into your gunsight to die.

About F-5, watch Spudknocker's video from 12:45 to 17:45. Post Mike_Romeo a little further up.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

10 hours ago, irisono said:

These are all cheap excuses. Other combat simulators, some economically priced or even older titles show the way.

 

Which ones? Most I've played use simplified flight models for AI to save on computational time. It's been common practice for a while to provide better performance. That said, the MiG-15 and MiG-21's AI FMs do need dire updating. The F-5 is not as bad as it used to be, but it could still stand for a little more adjustment at ace.

[draconus]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:58 PM, irisono said:

For years, DCS has been shrugging its shoulders at this tragedy and putting us off with daring promises.

Read again and wait:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

[irisono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb draconus:

Read again and wait:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/newsletters/a134f231fe8269e1c78dd6d0dd8c3c9d/

Captain sir, I have been in this sim for many years and have seen quite a few announcements like this. I hope there will be a breakthrough this time. Or will it be another one of those daring promises? In the evolving Cold War era in DCS, there will be predominantly close combat encounters. If the aircraft AI is not significantly improved, the frustration among users will increase immensely and the whole thing will just blow up in DCS's face. I would like to be wrong.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, irisono said:

If the aircraft AI is not significantly improved, the frustration among users will increase immensely and the whole thing will just blow up in DCS's face.

I don't share your frustration. It's pretty decent and challenging imho. We know the improvements are in the works and we can't help to get it done faster, so I just play with what we have instead of ranting or waiting. Remember that playability and realism depends much on the mission itself.

[irisono]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb draconus:

I don't share your frustration. It's pretty decent and challenging imho. We know the improvements are in the works and we can't help to get it done faster, so I just play with what we have instead of ranting or waiting. Remember that playability and realism depends much on the mission itself.

Allow me to ask three questions, please. Are we talking about the same simulator here? If so, how can you claim that DCS' aircratf AI is pretty decent and challenging when our forum is full of aircraft AI complaints and ED feels forced to start a major GFM program? Or, are you working for the ED defense department? Then I would understand.

[draconus]

1. Yes.

2. Small minority as far as we talk about problems brought in this thread (and improved since). Even general aircraft AI is miles ahead of ground AI. I say decent - meaning very playable - not perfect and there are still bugs of course. Most notable in dogfights and formation flying.

3. No.