Pitch Axis Tune

[Hiob]

Correct. Everybody is allowed his or her own approach and solution (and opinion) to any given problem.

But statements/opinions like "as it is meant to be flown" need to be opposed, because they are just plain ignorant.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." - Yoda

 

Oh, and btw., I use a very high-end Joystick with a 20cm extension - and still feel the need to put a considerable amount of curvature on the pitch axis in the mossie to get a good response. That and the adjustment of the trim from 1 to .25 in the lua gave me back the ability to fly and trim it like I am used to from other aircraft.

I don't give a .... if that is more or less realistic (and I doubt anyone can tell).

Edited September 28, 2021 by Hiob

[The LT]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

Correct. Everybody is allowed his or her own approach and solution (and opinion) to any given problem.

But statements/opinions like "as it is meant to be flown" need to be opposed, because they are just plain ignorant.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." - Yoda

 

Oh, and btw., I use a very high-end Joystick with a 20cm extension - and still feel the need to put a considerable amount of curvature on the pitch axis in the mossie to get a good response. That and the adjustment of the trim from 1 to .25 in the lua gave me back the ability to fly and trim it like I am used to from other aircraft.

I don't give a .... if that is more or less realistic (and I doubt anyone can tell).

 

"Meant to be flown" is not an "opinion". ED implements flight controls with their specific philosophy. The way ED models stick deflection and control surfaces is one of the reasons the aircraft handling characteristics are so unique in DCS as opposed to another well-known WW2 air combat game, where every aircraft feels "generic". The reason it feels generic is because they use an "adaptive" control scheme which caters to "generic" joysticks.

 

There is nothing to "oppose". ED model flight controls to the highest standard and provide workarounds for inferior flight controls. Whether some prefer to use them and others don't is a matter of preference and fidelity of their controllers. Personally, I prefer not to use workarounds and to fly the aircraft how ED intended it to be. YMMV. There is nothing "ignorant" about it. Hope that clears things up.

 

Trim rate "realism" isn't really something which can be fixed easily as most people don't use dedicated trim wheels but buttons. The only way to fix that issue would be getting dedicated trimmer control unit and using absolute axii for each trim channel.

Edited September 28, 2021 by The LT

[speed-of-heat]

Wow…

[The LT]

Just now, speed-of-heat said:

Wow…

Maybe elaborate a little bit on that?

[speed-of-heat]

Bearing in mind, the constraints of the board, I think your arrogance is stunning!

[The LT]

Just now, speed-of-heat said:

Bearing in mind, the constraints of the board, I think your arrogance is stunning!

I currently use an off-the-shelf joystick and fly without any curves or sat on any of my modules and I get good results after a few days of practice with the mossie.

 

What constraints and what "board" are you talking about? I'm also geniunely interested in what you perceive as arrogance.

[speed-of-heat]

lets start with meant to be flown is not an opinion and move on from there... YOU get good results for YOU... 

[The LT]

Just now, speed-of-heat said:

lets start with meant to be flown is not an opinion and move on from there... YOU get good results for YOU... 

Let me repeat that for you: "Meant to be flown" is not an "opinion". ED implements flight controls with their specific philosophy.
 

What's so hard to understand in this statement? ED models each module with unique flight controls. The afterburner detents, for example, are unique for each aircraft and so are the main flight controls. There is a reason they are so sensitive in the first place. And if you ask me, there is a damn good reason to stick to linear throw and no saturation. Yes, it takes getting used to, yes, it is not for everyone.

No point in arguing it any further. To each their own. But calling me arrogant for preferring to fly the module as intended by the devs and preferring to fix the problem "in hardware" is just ridiculous.

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, The LT said:

I currently use an off-the-shelf joystick and fly without any curves or sat on any of my modules and I get good results after a few days of practice with the mossie.

 

What constraints and what "board" are you talking about? I'm also geniunely interested in what you perceive as arrogance.

 

Well, if you can afford a custom, force-feedback, prototypically dimensioned controller for every individual warbird, then well done you. 

 

You present a utopian ideal for every simmer here, not a realistic - and more crucially useful - appraisal of what can be accomplished by an average user with an average hardware setup, which is ultimately what this thread is about.

 

Arrogance, conceit, and condescension are hallmarked by offering unrealistic solutions based on too high expectations from others, whilst telling them they are wrong, you are right and that you know better because reasons. You appear condescending because you offer little concession to others arguments, as right as some of the facts they present maybe, whilst continually staking your claim on the "correct", with little in the way of credentials to justify your rightness to boot.

 

Ultimately, most - but not all - of what you say is true. To TRULY get the ultimate experience from DCS you'd need a 1:1 scale replica of the control column of the given module you want to fly, augmented with a force feedback system designed to give both the exact loads and damping that the real airframe does (of the latter, no such thing exists, AFAIK).

 

That's a pipe dream, available only to those with so much money to spare you wonder why they don't just go get pilot trained on the real thing.

 

Given you've admitted to owning, by your own standards, a sub-optimal gaming hardware setup , you also now appear something of a hypocrite.

 

Maybe it's a lost in translation thing, but in the delivery of your opinions you do not present yourself as you seem to be wished to be perceived.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, The LT said:

"Meant to be flown" is not an "opinion". ED implements flight controls with their specific philosophy. <...>

 

There is nothing to "oppose". <...>

 

 

I guess you've somehow lost your way in that rabbit hole, but go ahead. I can't add anything to convince you, nor do I want to.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Hiob

[Basco1]

47 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I can't add anything to convince you, nor do I want to.

 

Agreed....I'm not going there either.

[Talisman_VR]

Hi Folks,

 

Some of you might be interested in the comments below regarding FF joysticks from our developer Yo-Yo.  The comments are in relation to the Spitfire, but may well read across to the Mosquito.

 

Yo-Yo on Spitfire FF Sticks (he uses MSFF2):

 

"The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature."

"And, for sure, no curves fo FF device for pitch. If you find this control too sensitive, just add a linear ~ 50% saturation."

 

"There is a difference in trimming between FF and non-FF. Adding curvature to non-FF does nothing bad because trim just adds a bias to the value from the joystick. For FF-device nothing is added, but the actual force neutral point is shifted."

 

 

For my MSFF2 I use 50% Y-saturation as the only non default setting.  Do need to check the box for swap axis though.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[The LT]

I guess you've somehow lost your way in that rabbit hole, but go ahead. I can't add anything to convince you, nor do I want to.

Convince me of what exactly? If you want to use curves and/or saturation, by all means, knock yourself out, go ahead. Just be aware of the downsides. Which are quite severe, imo. So I advise against it. That would be all.

[The LT]

 
Well, if you can afford a custom, force-feedback, prototypically dimensioned controller for every individual warbird, then well done you. 
 
You present a utopian ideal for every simmer here, not a realistic - and more crucially useful - appraisal of what can be accomplished by an average user with an average hardware setup, which is ultimately what this thread is about.
 
Arrogance, conceit, and condescension are hallmarked by offering unrealistic solutions based on too high expectations from others, whilst telling them they are wrong, you are right and that you know better because reasons. You appear condescending because you offer little concession to others arguments, as right as some of the facts they present maybe, whilst continually staking your claim on the "correct", with little in the way of credentials to justify your rightness to boot.
 
Ultimately, most - but not all - of what you say is true. To TRULY get the ultimate experience from DCS you'd need a 1:1 scale replica of the control column of the given module you want to fly, augmented with a force feedback system designed to give both the exact loads and damping that the real airframe does (of the latter, no such thing exists, AFAIK).
 
That's a pipe dream, available only to those with so much money to spare you wonder why they don't just go get pilot trained on the real thing.
 
Given you've admitted to owning, by your own standards, a sub-optimal gaming hardware setup , you also now appear something of a hypocrite.
 
Maybe it's a lost in translation thing, but in the delivery of your opinions you do not present yourself as you seem to be wished to be perceived.
 
 
 

I never suggested unrealistic solutions. I didn't suggest to buy expensive hardware. I just said that I prefer no curves and stated that there is a reason for it, went on to explain my point.

I fail to see the hypocrisy. All my sticks aren't particularly costly and I have spent lots of hours trying different settings, stick lengths, curves, positioning, etc.

Scaling the stick throw to be 1:1 is easier than it sounds and a large percent of DCS population flies with various stick extensions. It is not particularly costly either.

Please quote me where I condescendinly dismissed an argument in this thread. I did no such thing. I just pointed out that curves/sat are workarounds and not a proper solution. I don't understand why some are so touchy about them.

Btw, with a properly designed ffb stick, you would ultimately load profiles which would configure individual airframe parameters. People are already working on it. And it won't break the bank.

[speed-of-heat]

2 hours ago, Talisman_VR said:

Hi Folks,

 

Some of you might be interested in the comments below regarding FF joysticks from our developer Yo-Yo.  The comments are in relation to the Spitfire, but may well read across to the Mosquito.

 

Yo-Yo on Spitfire FF Sticks (he uses MSFF2):

 

"The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature."

"And, for sure, no curves fo FF device for pitch. If you find this control too sensitive, just add a linear ~ 50% saturation."

 

"There is a difference in trimming between FF and non-FF. Adding curvature to non-FF does nothing bad because trim just adds a bias to the value from the joystick. For FF-device nothing is added, but the actual force neutral point is shifted."

 

 

For my MSFF2 I use 50% Y-saturation as the only non default setting.  Do need to check the box for swap axis though.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

ok thats interesting, i will play with just "saturation" and see what the effect is; i dont have a FF back stick so it would be interesting to see if the FFB is a factor

Edited September 28, 2021 by speed-of-heat

[Talisman_VR]

On 9/28/2021 at 5:19 PM, speed-of-heat said:

ok thats interesting, i will play with just "saturation" and see what the effect is; i dont have a FF back stick so it would be interesting to see if the FFB is a factor

 

 

Good luck.  Just to be clear, my swap axis check box comment was for FF stick (MSFF2).

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[speed-of-heat]

yeah , i assumed it was, but thanks for the clarity!

[_Hoss]

On 9/28/2021 at 4:52 AM, speed-of-heat said:

Wow…

I know how you feel................... quickly deteriorated into a hot mess, how about some examples of peoples curves, and the custom ones where do those go?  2, 4, 8, 10, 12, etc....

Less of the my method is better than yours, so get over it crap would be great....      I'd like to hear what people are using for TMWH with 10cm extensions for all the various warbirds, they are all a bit squirrely.  I'm probably going to accumulate more ban points here............................ 

 

Cheers

 

[The LT]

I know how you feel................... quickly deteriorated into a hot mess, how about some examples of peoples curves, and the custom ones where do those go?  2, 4, 8, 10, 12, etc....
Less of the my method is better than yours, so get over it crap would be great....      I'd like to hear what people are using for TMWH with 10cm extensions for all the various warbirds, they are all a bit squirrely.  I'm probably going to accumulate more ban points here............................ 
 
Cheers
 

Instead of crippling your controls with curves, just learn to fly without them. You got an extension. It should help.

[Jandar]

My setings x/y

0,1,3,7,15,28,42,56,70,85,100

 

same in Spit, but watch y6!

Edited October 6, 2021 by Jandar

[hazzer]

On 9/28/2021 at 3:29 PM, Talisman_VR said:

Hi Folks,

 

Some of you might be interested in the comments below regarding FF joysticks from our developer Yo-Yo.  The comments are in relation to the Spitfire, but may well read across to the Mosquito.

 

Yo-Yo on Spitfire FF Sticks (he uses MSFF2):

 

"The curvatures in pitch for FF is the worse case in attempts to approach to the full-size stick. Try to use Y-saturation it solves the problem. Or use not deep curvature."

"And, for sure, no curves fo FF device for pitch. If you find this control too sensitive, just add a linear ~ 50% saturation."

 

"There is a difference in trimming between FF and non-FF. Adding curvature to non-FF does nothing bad because trim just adds a bias to the value from the joystick. For FF-device nothing is added, but the actual force neutral point is shifted."

 

 

For my MSFF2 I use 50% Y-saturation as the only non default setting.  Do need to check the box for swap axis though.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

This ffb curve issue is very frustrating... Are there any alive threads on the forum about this, about time it was fixed or even looked into. 

[Talisman_VR]

22 hours ago, hazzer said:

This ffb curve issue is very frustrating... Are there any alive threads on the forum about this, about time it was fixed or even looked into. 

 

Not seen much on this lately.  I must say that no curves and just 50/60 Y-saturation is working very well for me with MSFF2.  What Yo-Yo has said he uses with his MSFF2 works for me.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman