Turn rate performance with pylons

[TheBigTatanka]

Hello all,

 

Does anyone have data on the impact of pylons on the sustained turn rate ability of the Hornet in DCS? Is it a measurable difference between having your 2 AIM-120s mounted on the cheek stations vs having sparrows mounted on a pylon? I'd go and check, but I don't have the hornet installed at the moment.

 

How else have recent flight model changes impacted the hornet? I recently flew BFM against one in DCS, and was impressed by its ability to hold onto energy in a clean configuration (but i hear that's accurate when clean).

 

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[Exorcet]

Pylons are the Hornet's primary source of drag. Wingtip and fuselage AAM's only and it could be an interceptor. Anything on the wings and it struggles to go supersonic. I don't think the effect is as dramatic when it comes to subsonic turn rate, but I haven't tested this specifically.

[wilbur81]

DCS does model the effect of pylon & weapons drag for the Hornet. Please realize that, if you're impressed with the Hornet's performance in BFM against you, it has been out for a long time now and folks (like me) that have flown it almost exclusively and love to do Gunzo BFM over and over and over are actually really pretty good at it.

 

A second possibility is that you were fighting a (in my opinion) 'cheater' who was pulling the paddle switch. But even still, our DCS Hornet bleeds energy like crazy if you aren't very disciplined with your AoA.

Edited October 6, 2021 by wilbur81

[Ignition]

5 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

A second possibility is that you were fighting a (in my opinion) 'cheater' who was pulling the paddle switch. But even still, our DCS Hornet bleeds energy like crazy if you aren't very disciplined with your AoA.

 

 

There're a lot o player who overuse the paddle switch, in combat almost every single turn above 8G. And without any aircraft penalty.

They transform the F-18 in a F-16.

[TheBigTatanka]

Yeah, this guy was not using the override. I think he hit a max of 7.6Gs. i was just impressed with his energy management and ability to retain energy -- but i hear that's how the hornet should be without pylons. Different story with them on.

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[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

Yeah, this guy was not using the override. I think he hit a max of 7.6Gs. i was just impressed with his energy management and ability to retain energy -- but i hear that's how the hornet should be without pylons. Different story with them on.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

It depends greatly on the speed he was at in the turn. If he was at 475+ kts with pylons, depending on fuel weight, he can sustain 7.5-7.6 until he runs out of gas. Now if he was at 350kts or slower, there's no way he's going to sustain that G in the Hornet for more than a few seconds. Try it yourself. Just an FYI - As an avid Hornet guy (who never uses the paddle switch in a fight), I almost never BFM above 380kts and I NEVER sustain a 7.5G (or max G available) turn in a dogfight. AoA is the strength of the Hornet and 7G+ is not good for AoA. I beat guys by pulling between 5 and 6.5 G's, at speeds between 125-360 kts. Viper guys come zooming in at 450+ kts, and I one-circle them if I can. I NEVER EVER EVER use the vertical when in the Hornet in BFM unless it's towards the earth.

Edited October 6, 2021 by wilbur81

[grant977]

Just a question from curiosity. Why is it considered cheating to us paddle? Does the flight model not bleed enough energy when that is utilized? Ya it gives you more Gs but that should be at a cost.

 

I don’t fly the bug much in BFM the cat is my primary ride. I ask this as information for when I go up against Bugs.

[Spartan111sqn]

I have heard some RL hornet pilots and they have used sometimes when training dogfights.

 

so for me it is not a cheat, it is a hornet capability.

[Snappy]

32 minutes ago, grant977 said:

Just a question from curiosity. Why is it considered cheating to us paddle? Does the flight model not bleed enough energy when that is utilized? Ya it gives you more Gs but that should be at a cost.

 

I don’t fly the bug much in BFM the cat is my primary ride. I ask this as information for when I go up against Bugs.

 

19 minutes ago, Spartan111sqn said:

I have heard some RL hornet pilots and they have used sometimes when training dogfights.

 

so for me it is not a cheat, it is a hornet capability.

Whatever you need to tell yourself...

Its been stated over and over again ,in reality  the paddle is only for emergencies i.e. avoid imminent ground collision and not to enhance performance during bfm. I strongly doubt it is used in any form during training fights which nowadays tend to have strict safety rules as well, plus the moment you pull the paddle you essentially become a test pilot as you’re flying outside the envelope.

 

Unfortunately 90% of DCS Hornet pilots on dogfight servers don’t get it or don’t care as they want to win at all costs.

Just watch any given Hornet on a dogfight server and see them happily pull past the G Limit 90% of the time.

Its ok from a gaming perspective, I just find it mildly ironic that these people chose DCS as their platform of choice as they basically put the strive for realism ad absurdum.

[grant977]

May I be the devils advocate. Any BFM in peace time of course they won’t use it and they will have g limits to abide by for airframe longevity sake. 
 

With that said you are in a real life or death engagement any pilot will utilize whatever he has there are no rules or restrictions. Who cares if the jet breaks if your alternative is getting shot or trying to live. 

[GGTharos]

My understanding is that you fight like you train, therefore you will train like you fight.

[Wizard_03]

1 hour ago, grant977 said:

May I be the devils advocate. Any BFM in peace time of course they won’t use it and they will have g limits to abide by for airframe longevity sake. 
 

With that said you are in a real life or death engagement any pilot will utilize whatever he has there are no rules or restrictions. Who cares if the jet breaks if your alternative is getting shot or trying to live. 

Absolutely not. First of all If your having to use the paddle switch during BFM at all, your not fighting the jet right. There is no realistic  circumstance where that will help you win MORE then just fighting the jet to it strengths. So there's never a call for it in the first place. 

 

That's before we get into the repercussions of damaging the airframe or adding excess wear. And LOTs of people care if the jet breaks. The paddle switch just takes you to the COs office. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Wizard_03

[Krippz]

17 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

Absolutely not. First of all If your having to use the paddle switch during BFM at all, your not fighting the jet right. There is no realistic  circumstance where that will help you win MORE then just fighting the jet to it strengths. So there's never a call for it in the first place. 

 

That's before we get into the repercussions of damaging the airframe or adding excess wear. And LOTs of people care if the jet breaks. The paddle switch just takes you to the COs office. 

 

Yeah issue is most people use the paddle switch for BFM in multiplayer.

[GGTharos]

So BFM them accordingly

There's lots of stuff we can do in a sim that we won't do IRL, like ... ignoring risk to life and limb, deliberately crash into things, etc.

Edited October 8, 2021 by GGTharos

[Wizard_03]

2 hours ago, Krippz said:

Yeah issue is most people use the paddle switch for BFM in multiplayer.

Yeah well most people don't know what their doing. Wilbur81 does. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Wizard_03

[TheBigTatanka]

Thanks everyone for your answers. I was just looking for answers about sustained rate with pylons vs no-pylons. I only fly against guys in controlled environments and they aren't pulling the paddle.

I'm of the opinion that BFM isn't combat training, but an exercise in maneuvering your jet and recognizing sight pictures after having a plan based on EM study -- hence why I needed to know about pylon impact, but it sounds like no one here has hard numbers. I don't have the hornet installed at the moment, or i would check myself.

Thanks guys.



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[wilbur81]

8 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

 but it sounds like no one here has hard numbers. I don't have the hornet installed at the moment, or i would check myself.
 

You probably won't be able to find those hard numbers... and you probably won't find anyone here who can. The Lot 20 C Hornet with the GE f404-402 enhanced performance engines requires the "Dash 210" -210 performance manual... which appears to be nearly impossible to find. Not even sure that ED has access to it. Needless to say, if one does find F-18 performance data out there, it is probably for the A model with the -400 engines.

Edited October 8, 2021 by wilbur81

[TheBigTatanka]

You probably won't be able to find those hard numbers... and you probably won't find anyone here who can. The Lot 20 C Hornet with the GE f404-402 enhanced performance engines requires the "Dash 210" -210 performance manual... which appears to be nearly impossible to find. Not even sure that ED has access to it. Needless to say, if one does find F-18 performance data out there, it is probably for the A model with the -400 engines.

For sure. I'm talking within DCS thiugh as it is currently modeled.

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[Hummingbird]

Here's an idea, allow servers to turn off paddle switch functionality. Then those who like it can have it on their servers, and those who don't, can have it off.

[jaguara5]

8 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Here's an idea, allow servers to turn off paddle switch functionality. Then those who like it can have it on their servers, and those who don't, can have it off.

Agree. Someone has to post that in the  dcs wishlist forum.

[fagulha]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:05 PM, Spartan111sqn said:

I have heard some RL hornet pilots and they have used sometimes when training dogfights.

 

so for me it is not a cheat, it is a hornet capability.

No. They´re not authorised to use the paddle switch ever. And if so, the aircraft need to go to maintenance for checking possible structural problems/issues. Who ever told you that is with the wrong information.

[apocom]

17 hours ago, fagulha said:

No. They´re not authorised to use the paddle switch ever. And if so, the aircraft need to go to maintenance for checking possible structural problems/issues. Who ever told you that is with the wrong information.

 

So you would rather lose the aircraft instead of bringing it to maintenance? That's also why the paddle switch is on the joystick to not ever use it, because you put functionality on the stick that you should never use?

NATOPS explains use of the Paddle switch. Also the canadian hornets are rated for 9G.

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, apocom said:

 

So you would rather lose the aircraft instead of bringing it to maintenance? That's also why the paddle switch is on the joystick to not ever use it, because you put functionality on the stick that you should never use?

NATOPS explains use of the Paddle switch. Also the canadian hornets are rated for 9G.

You were already told what it is for. To avoid imminent collision as a last resort and thats why it is on the flight stick and not somewhere behind your back or down by your knees. Not sure whats so difficult to understand about it.

The swiss hornets (probably the same as the canadians) are also rated up to 9G.That is a totally different matter though as these aircraft have received significant structural upgrades to make this possible.So dont compare apples to oranges.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Snappy

[apocom]

11 minutes ago, Snappy said:

You were already told what it is for. To avoid imminent collision as a last resort and thats why it is on the flight stick and not somewhere behind your back or down by your knees. Not sure whats so difficult to understand about it.

 

 

Do you have a source for this? Contrary to popular believe someone on the internet having an opinion is not a very trustworthy source.

[jaguara5]

3 hours ago, Snappy said:

 

The swiss hornets (probably the same as the canadians) are also rated up to 9G.That is a totally different matter though as these aircraft have received significant structural upgrades to make this possible.So dont compare apples to oranges.

 

Off topic. No , they fly up to 7.5g. 

I had exact  the same impression until i asked a month ago my bfm training partner, who's ceo / friend (and passionate dcs player) flew the hornets for the swiss air force (they are working on the A320's now)

Back on topic.  My understanding is to, as GG Tharos staited above, that you fight lke train and otherwise. So when you are coming into the merge  you are flying at the optimum speed that according to you training (so without the paddle) gives you the best  turn performance for the specific aicraft configuration, and not an (not covered by EM diagrams and training) highger speed to take advantage of the higher g loads and sustain them for longer time. 

The above mentioned swiss pilot said that the hornet is designed to be flown as an AoA machine and not high g turn machine. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by jaguara5