Turn rate performance with pylons

[wilbur81]

Canadian Hornets did not/do not have a 9G FCS allowance... nor do Canadian Hornets have any other structural upgrades that are out of the ordinary. As to the conversation about the paddle switch - I stand by my own conscience that, in a video game environment, I will not EVER fight someone using it as it feels to me like cheating. However, the real world application would have to be addressed by Hornet pilots and/or Boeing. It is obviously there for a reason (probably to save it from the ground)... maybe to avoid other kinds of imminent death (enemy missile impact, midair, etc.), but it seems anecdotally clear that the paddle is never used by pilots in training...

 

It'd be cool to hear from some real Hornet drivers what the training syllabus said about the paddle. As far as keeping it in the sim, we need it there in the name of realism. But if you play MP in the Hornet and beat a guy because you pulled the paddle, does that really feel like an accomplishment to anyone? Sorry TBT, we've gotten off topic... You'll just have to buy the Hornet module and try it out for yourself. It is an amazing aircraft...

Edited October 10, 2021 by wilbur81

[Blackfyre]

1 час назад, wilbur81 сказал:

It'd be cool to hear from some real Hornet drivers what the training syllabus said about the paddle.

Check this (as far as I remember paddle swith used only as last chance tool, therefore not used in the training at all)

 

For those who don't want to watch the hour-video there is very last comment by C.W. Lemoine:

Цитата

You can disagree all day long. Gonky and I (and GB who has also weighed in) have flown the Hornet and in combat. Your going in game plan is not going to be to break the jet. The paddle switch is a last ditch, I've screwed away everything and now it's do or die option. We don't fight "all or nothing" engagements. We fight to win and have a usable jet for the next evolution. This is why we train the way we do. Longevity wins wars, not breaking the jet because you flew shitty BFM. As for your second point, you're wrong. I don't know any other way to say it. If you're flying fast enough that the Hornet (with the paddle switch) can give you 9Gs, you're going too fast and arcing. If you fight within the performance envelope of the aircraft, you seldom need over 7Gs. We don't train to use the paddle switch. If you want realism, then don't use it. If you want an arcade-like experience, do whatever you want.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Blackfyre
comment added

[evilnate]

On topic. Here’s a demo of a rhino with heavy load.

 

Off topic about g limit override. If your on a BFM public server, you should expect people to use it. 

 

[captain_dalan]

On 10/9/2021 at 1:45 AM, wilbur81 said:

You probably won't be able to find those hard numbers... and you probably won't find anyone here who can. The Lot 20 C Hornet with the GE f404-402 enhanced performance engines requires the "Dash 210" -210 performance manual... which appears to be nearly impossible to find. Not even sure that ED has access to it. Needless to say, if one does find F-18 performance data out there, it is probably for the A model with the -400 engines.

 

It's not like the  f404-400 has a wealth of information either. Just a level flight envelope for 4 configurations, and acceleration charts. No excess power charts, no Cl max charts, not even STR charts. Had it at least partial STR charts in it, we could estimate the increase in performance based on increase in static thrust for the improved engines (about 11%), similar to the difference between TF-30 and F110 in full burner. Alas, not even that is available. 

[wilbur81]

5 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

It's not like the  f404-400 has a wealth of information either. Just a level flight envelope for 4 configurations, and acceleration charts. No excess power charts, no Cl max charts, not even STR charts. Had it at least partial STR charts in it, we could estimate the increase in performance based on increase in static thrust for the improved engines (about 11%), similar to the difference between TF-30 and F110 in full burner. Alas, not even that is available. 

Indeed. 

[captain_dalan]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:37 PM, TheBigTatanka said:

 

Hello all,

 

Does anyone have data on the impact of pylons on the sustained turn rate ability of the Hornet in DCS? Is it a measurable difference between having your 2 AIM-120s mounted on the cheek stations vs having sparrows mounted on a pylon? I'd go and check, but I don't have the hornet installed at the moment.

 

How else have recent flight model changes impacted the hornet? I recently flew BFM against one in DCS, and was impressed by its ability to hold onto energy in a clean configuration (but i hear that's accurate when clean).

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

 

 

To the OP, this is by no means an extensive dataset, but he last week i flew the F-18 almost exclusively in different test configurations and at least in DCS and at medium altitude 10-20000ft:
1. A single pair of pylons, depending on mach, seems to decrease your STR by roughly 1 degree per turn, maybe a bit extra. By pylon here, i mean the pylon only, no ordnance attached to it.
2. A second pair of pylons, adds to a total loss ranging from 1.5 to 2.5 degrees per second.

Conclusion, the ability of the plane to sustain turns appears to be greatly impacted by the presence of the pylons. Something i should have immediately been made aware off, when those 4 ACE level MiG-15's kicked the living poo out of me when i fought them with the pylons on!  

[Hulkbust44]

Here's an idea, allow servers to turn off paddle switch functionality. Then those who like it can have it on their servers, and those who don't, can have it off.

No.

It's a capability of the real aircraft. If you have a pod on you do need to pull paddle to get to 7.5g as you would clean. Sure you'd dump the gyro, but you have a better chance of making it back alive. (Winning the fight)

Not to mention the paddle switch is you A/P disengage and disables NWS.

Also, remember what it actually does... it dosen't disable the G limiter, it gives you 33% more of you available G. Never going to cause a catastrophic structural failure lol. Just crushes a few panels.

Mobius708

[Snappy]

8 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

No.

It's a capability of the real aircraft. If you have a pod on you do need to pull paddle to get to 7.5g as you would clean. Sure you'd dump the gyro, but you have a better chance of making it back alive. (Winning the fight)

Not to mention the paddle switch is you A/P disengage and disables NWS.

Also, remember what it actually does... it dosen't disable the G limiter, it gives you 33% more of you available G. Never going to cause a catastrophic structural failure lol. Just crushes a few panels.

Mobius708
 

Here we go again…roll eyes..it’s as if you didn’t read the thread.Guess there’s no way of convincing people like you, even if the Hornet’s lead designer told you otherwise you’d probably still come up with arguments why the paddle should be pulled to improve combat performance.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Snappy

[MARLAN_]

From a real Hornet pilot:

Quote

 

Proper Paddle Switch usage
1. Disengage autopilot or clear BLINS
2. Prevent hitting the ground
3. Increase miss distance of a missile still tracking that will hit you if you don’t pull it (combat only)

Improper uses
1. Anything other than 1-3

 

That said, my own personal opinion is whether or not it is officially backed or not, if you're in a situation where not pulling the paddle would drastically increase your chance of dying, I'd pull it and get debriefed afterwards when I'm still alive.

EG: You just merged head on with a Felon, you're flying a bit fast to have a good performance turn, are you going to follow the rules and die, or will you pull the paddle and try to get your 9X on him before you die?

[Snappy]

None of the above applies in any form to the issue on dogfight servers where the huge majority of hornet absolutely pre-plan on using it from the get-go to win at any cost.

[Versor]

My friend in F-18 squeezed 11 G out of a dive flight during a chase in dogfight. He maintained this result for a longer time not a one second and he hadn't even black out.

[Wizard_03]

16 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Never going to cause a catastrophic structural failure lol. Just crushes a few panels.

Mobius708
 

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/f-15-incident/

 

So here is the result of a 9G aircraft pulling 12. 2.5 million dollars and a unspecified number of weeks/months where that aircraft is unavailable.

 

So did you win? or is that aircraft wreaked just the same. For a certainty it's no longer available for combat during the current campaign, maybe even the war. (In this case the jet might just get scrapped as it's old and didn't have much life left in it anyway) So is that acceptable? 

I don't think so. That's what we call a loss, or if you did manage to get the enemy too, breaking even. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Wizard_03

[Hulkbust44]

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/f-15-incident/
 
So here is the result of a 9G aircraft pulling 12. 2.5 million dollars and a unspecified number of weeks/months where that aircraft is unavailable.
 
So did you win? or is that aircraft wreaked just the same. For a certainty it's no longer available for combat during the current campaign, maybe even the war. (In this case the jet might just get scrapped as it's old and didn't have much life left in it anyway) So is that acceptable? 
I don't think so. That's what we call a loss, or if you did manage to get the enemy too, breaking even. 

What is your point? Should the pilot not have pulled so hard in this case? Sure the aircraft was damaged, but it MADE IT BACK TO BASE. I.e, the pilot survived. We put many millions into training each pilot, it many cars they are worth more than the aircraft, outside of them being a human being.

In combat, another life or death situation you'd be damn sure that I would pull 12 g to by nose on before the Flanker does. Boo hoo, damaged aircraft, but the pilot survived. Much easier to replace an aircraft than a pilot. (In most cases. Not counting U2s and Black birds)

Mobius708

[Wizard_03]

31 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

What is your point? Should the pilot not have pulled so hard in this case? Sure the aircraft was damaged, but it MADE IT BACK TO BASE. I.e, the pilot survived. We put many millions into training each pilot, it many cars they are worth more than the aircraft, outside of them being a human being.

In combat, another life or death situation you'd be damn sure that I would pull 12 g to by nose on before the Flanker does. Boo hoo, damaged aircraft, but the pilot survived. Much easier to replace an aircraft than a pilot. (In most cases. Not counting U2s and Black birds)

Mobius708
 

Your still down an aircraft for the next day. It's a tactical loss, maybe it's not a strategic one. But either way the squadron is down a fighter. Quite a bit worse then a few panels.

Why not bring the jet back in good shape for the next fight so you can win the war. Rather then get into the logistics of repairing or replacing jets aka the mathematics of defeat?

Your making a big assumption that there's a big reserve of jets you can draw from and that losses like that are easy to replace.

Don't need to pull the paddle to win in the hornet. Don't need 12Gs to win the eagle. So why do it? Cause more damage to the aircraft then the enemy?

 

Nevermind the possibility of GLoc, nevermind the fact that most of the fighters in the game can STILL out rate you even with the paddle. Nevermind that SRMs don't give a hoot about how many Gs you can pull. Nevermind that over stressing the jet can infact damage control surfaces and cause major flight control issues, possibly resulting the loss of jet anyway.  

 

If your gonna die sure yank away, that F-15 pilot did. But why are you in situations you where that is life or death if you don't? That F-15 pilot was a student. What's your excuse? The hornet is more then capable of beating everything in the game without the paddle. The true strength of the jet is it's low speed controllability and nose pointing authority. So why are you not fighting the jet too it's strengths? 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Wizard_03

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Hulkbust44 said:

What is your point? Should the pilot not have pulled so hard in this case? Sure the aircraft was damaged, but it MADE IT BACK TO BASE. I.e, the pilot survived. We put many millions into training each pilot, it many cars they are worth more than the aircraft, outside of them being a human being.

In combat, another life or death situation you'd be damn sure that I would pull 12 g to by nose on before the Flanker does. Boo hoo, damaged aircraft, but the pilot survived. Much easier to replace an aircraft than a pilot. (In most cases. Not counting U2s and Black birds)

Mobius708
 

And the bonus is if you destroy five of your own jets that way you become an enemy ace! 

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, Wizard_03 said:

...The true strength of the jet is it's low speed controllability and nose pointing authority. So why are you not fighting the jet too it's strengths? 

 

After all this time I still have to constantly remind myself to ease up on the stick in most turning fights not to run out of steam. Forget the paddle switch... I did run into the dirt couple of times in the past when evading SAMs and paddle wouldn't have made any difference. The switch is there though, so... might be worth to do some creative tests. Let's see, perhaps if I could combine a pirouette entry with paddle, followed by...

runs to the flight line

Edited October 19, 2021 by Gripes323

[Hulkbust44]

Your still down an aircraft for the next day. It's a tactical loss, maybe it's not a strategic one. But either way the squadron is down a fighter. Quite a bit worse then a few panels.
Why not bring the jet back in good shape for the next fight so you can win the war. Rather then get into the logistics of repairing or replacing jets aka the mathematics of defeat?
Your making a big assumption that there's a big reserve of jets you can draw from and that losses like that are easy to replace.
Don't need to pull the paddle to win in the hornet. Don't need 12Gs to win the eagle. So why do it? Cause more damage to the aircraft then the enemy?
 
Nevermind the possibility of GLoc, nevermind the fact that most of the fighters in the game can STILL out rate you even with the paddle. Nevermind that SRMs don't give a hoot about how many Gs you can pull. Nevermind that over stressing the jet can infact damage control surfaces and cause major flight control issues, possibly resulting the loss of jet anyway.  
 
If your gonna die sure yank away, that F-15 pilot did. But why are you in situations you where that is life or death if you don't? That F-15 pilot was a student. What's your excuse? The hornet is more then capable of beating everything in the game without the paddle. The true strength of the jet is it's low speed controllability and nose pointing authority. So why are you not fighting the jet too it's strengths? 

I was referring to an IRL theoretical scenario where you are facing a better performing opponent. In DCS of course it's not needed as the Hornet will out turn almost everything in a 1C.

In DCS I personally never use it in BFM. Last ditch effort to evade an endgame SAM sure. Or to escape a CFIT situation.

Being down an aircraft is better than being down an aircraft and a pilot.

Mobius708