Harpoon

[hein22]

Is the Harpoon still useless? I remember it did almost 0 damage to ships due to a bug and ED was working on it.

Does anyone know if it got fixed? I was planning on doing some missions and would not bother with naval ops if it is still broken.

Thanks.

[Hulkbust44]

Last time I tried 4 Harpoons took out a Kirov. Came in frontal aspect, other missiles might've helped straveoff the defenses.

Now 4 Harpoons to sink a Kirov doesn't sound right to me, they weren't built to sink large ships.

Mobius708

[felixx75]

5 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Last time I tried 4 Harpoons took out a Kirov. Came in frontal aspect, other missiles might've helped straveoff the defenses.

Now 4 Harpoons to sink a Kirov doesn't sound right to me, they weren't built to sink large ships.

Mobius708
 

Just out of interest, do you have a source?

[Bananabrai]

I am not sure what you are saying. Did these 4 hit the Kirov or do you not know how many hit the Kirov?

4 Harpoons hitting a Kirov -> Yes, it should sink it or at least disable probably the entire ship (which we don't have in DCS)
Just look at videos and pictures of real ships getting hit by Harpoons, Exocets, etc.

It is another story if you are talking about: How to get 4 Harpoons to hit the target, as IRL you probably need to shoot 20-30 missiles, maybe more, to get a few thorugh the CWIS.
The GAF made an analysis how many Kormorans (similar to the Exocet) you need to shoot towards ONE frigate to get it, you need to get a whole squadron airborne more or less.
That's why it was phased out.

The days of AShM are over, except for higher supersonic and hypersonic. 

[Swift.]

48 minutes ago, Bananabrai said:

I am not sure what you are saying. Did these 4 hit the Kirov or do you not know how many hit the Kirov?

4 Harpoons hitting a Kirov -> Yes, it should sink it or at least disable probably the entire ship (which we don't have in DCS)
Just look at videos and pictures of real ships getting hit by Harpoons, Exocets, etc.

It is another story if you are talking about: How to get 4 Harpoons to hit the target, as IRL you probably need to shoot 20-30 missiles, maybe more, to get a few thorugh the CWIS.
The GAF made an analysis how many Kormorans (similar to the Exocet) you need to shoot towards ONE frigate to get it, you need to get a whole squadron airborne more or less.
That's why it was phased out.

The days of AShM are over, except for higher supersonic and hypersonic. 

It certainly doesn't help that the flight profile for Harpoon in DCS is way too high

[Hulkbust44]

I am not sure what you are saying. Did these 4 hit the Kirov or do you not know how many hit the Kirov?
4 Harpoons hitting a Kirov -> Yes, it should sink it or at least disable probably the entire ship (which we don't have in DCS)
Just look at videos and pictures of real ships getting hit by Harpoons, Exocets, etc.
It is another story if you are talking about: How to get 4 Harpoons to hit the target, as IRL you probably need to shoot 20-30 missiles, maybe more, to get a few thorugh the CWIS.
The GAF made an analysis how many Kormorans (similar to the Exocet) you need to shoot towards ONE frigate to get it, you need to get a whole squadron airborne more or less.
That's why it was phased out.
The days of AShM are over, except for higher supersonic and hypersonic. 

IIRC it was 4 Hornet's each firing 4 HARPOONS. 4 hit the Kirov class, some of them were launched at the carrier.

Mobius708

[Foka]

About efficiency of the Harpoon...
And it was empty ship, without emergency crews.
Small took 4 Harpoons, 1 Mav, 2 Hellfires, Mk 84 bomb, GBU-12 bomb, and then Mk 48 torpedo took the kill.
So Harpoon wouldn't be very efficient against large ship. IRL they would probably use Tomahawk or LRASM.

 

[hein22]

25 minutes ago, Foka said:

About efficiency of the Harpoon...
And it was empty ship, without emergency crews.
Small took 4 Harpoons, 1 Mav, 2 Hellfires, Mk 84 bomb, GBU-12 bomb, and then Mk 48 torpedo took the kill.
So Harpoon wouldn't be very efficient against large ship. IRL they would probably use Tomahawk or LRASM.

 

So you're saying that the DCS harpoon is well implemented? I thought the little damage it did was incorrect.

[Foka]

I'm not saying that, because I have not enough info about real Harpoon, but as you can see it's not big and powerfull missile as some would want. It's just DCS lacks bigger missiles.

[cajundave]

Not as germane to DCS, but the SINKEX doesn't evaluate the real world function of those weapons as well as you think.  The ship being sunk has no fuel, no munitions, and no crew on board.  In WWII, most of the heavy damage that sank ships was not the initial explosion, but the secondary's as the fuel bunkers and munition stores blew the ship in half.  Also what may appear to be superficial damage, may have injured or killed a lot of the crew.  At the very least taken them out of the battle as they attended the damage to the ship and themselves.  You don't always have to sink a ship to win.

[bfr]

3 hours ago, cajundave said:

Not as germane to DCS, but the SINKEX doesn't evaluate the real world function of those weapons as well as you think.  The ship being sunk has no fuel, no munitions, and no crew on board.  In WWII, most of the heavy damage that sank ships was not the initial explosion, but the secondary's as the fuel bunkers and munition stores blew the ship in half.  Also what may appear to be superficial damage, may have injured or killed a lot of the crew.  At the very least taken them out of the battle as they attended the damage to the ship and themselves.  You don't always have to sink a ship to win.

And that's always been the shortcoming in DCS that it doesn't really model system damage to ships right now.  You don't need to send a ship to the bottom to take it out of the fight, probably just wrecking systems like its radars or propulsion would really knock it down a peg or two.

[cajundave]

16 hours ago, bfr said:

And that's always been the shortcoming in DCS that it doesn't really model system damage to ships right now.  You don't need to send a ship to the bottom to take it out of the fight, probably just wrecking systems like its radars or propulsion would really knock it down a peg or two.

As great and in-depth as DCS is, I will admit a small amount of disappointment the first time I hit a cruiser with a pair of HARMs, and didn't impact its defensive abilities at all.  Obviously a HARM doesn't do much damage to the ship itself, but it would be great to see damage modeling implemented to the radar and other systems.  I'd imagine that's a pretty big ask of DCS though.  I'm sure that would be a complex task to determine system damage modelling for each type of ship with any smidge of accuracy.

[hein22]

1 hour ago, cajundave said:

As great and in-depth as DCS is, I will admit a small amount of disappointment the first time I hit a cruiser with a pair of HARMs, and didn't impact its defensive abilities at all.  Obviously a HARM doesn't do much damage to the ship itself, but it would be great to see damage modeling implemented to the radar and other systems.  I'd imagine that's a pretty big ask of DCS though.  I'm sure that would be a complex task to determine system damage modelling for each type of ship with any smidge of accuracy.

 

On 10/27/2021 at 2:32 PM, Foka said:

I'm not saying that, because I have not enough info about real Harpoon, but as you can see it's not big and powerfull missile as some would want. It's just DCS lacks bigger missiles.

So the Harpoon IRL isn't a missile that would damage a combat ship? You think DCS is accurate in that regard? Honest questions here, not trying to imply anything.

[Hulkbust44]

So the Harpoon IRL isn't a missile that would damage a combat ship? You think DCS is accurate in that regard? Honest questions here, not trying to imply anything.

The Harpoon will damage and disable the he ships combat systems, most of the time, if you need to skin a ship you'll need an ADCAB or 2.

Mobius708

[Foka]

On 10/29/2021 at 5:34 PM, hein22 said:

 

So the Harpoon IRL isn't a missile that would damage a combat ship? You think DCS is accurate in that regard? Honest questions here, not trying to imply anything.

Of course it would and will damge a ship. IRL nad in DCS. But IMO it's quite acurate to require 3-4 Harpoons to SINK medium size warship, and much more to sink large ship like CV.

[hein22]

5 hours ago, Foka said:

Of course it would and will damge a ship. IRL nad in DCS. But IMO it's quite acurate to require 3-4 Harpoons to SINK medium size warship, and much more to sink large ship like CV.

I think right now it takes like 40 to take down a warship, hehe.

[Foka]

Nah, you can take down Grisha class with 1-2. Som bigger warships need 3-4 hits.
Few days ago with friends during mission we destroyed Kuznetshov launching 12 Harpoons and of cours not all reached the target.

 

And I'm talking about hits, not missiles launched but destropyed by air defence.