Please improve mission design & (de-)briefing

[Michi.G85]

Man, I´m again so done right now with DCS for a while.
I´m mostly on SP so understand my frustration...

I just tried to play the "Missile City" mission and boy the immersion ejects faster then Jester on a bad day. We all spent huge money on VR and HOTAS and Modules but as soon as I read the mission briefing it´s all in vein.

I mean it´s great that ED gives us new missions and especially the new ones are well made, but why oh why do they still miss major basic (!) information crucial to the pilot? Take Missile City as an example: It's rather simple. Fly, drop bombs, shoot down misslies, don´t die. But: Supposed I fly this mission for the very first time and I don´t want to take away any surprises (or in other words: cheat) and look at the mission planer - how the F am I supposed to know what I´m tasked to do? All is set - but I don´t know on which waypoint the Target is. Where is my IP, at least?

I guess it all doesn´t matter that much, because (of course) the mission has no success/failure settings. So after playing the mission for the 6th time I gave up. I hit the target - nothing. Ships explode. Nothing.

If you really want to have fun, try the A-10C campaign "Georgian Hammer"  mission 3 ("Push 2-1"). Targets? Montana & Vermont. Yeah - thats all. No explanation what the targets are. Or where they are. Yes, again - take a look at the mission planer. And while I´m on it I can also take a look at the enemy units. Where they are. What they are and how many of them. It feels like it doesn´t matter a bit if the Player is in the mission or not - and thats exactly the opposite of what it should feel like!

Realy ED? Is it really that hard to take a moment and write a helpful briefing? Maybe even put 2 or 3 usefull pictures and a (zoomable) map to it (without spoiling everything). I play flight games since F-14 Fleet Defender and even then their briefings were more useful then what we got in DCS.

Is it really to much to ask for a decent: You are this, start here, go to there, do this, be aware of... and to succeed do this and avoid this.?

Man, sorry for bitching but even for me as a hardcore flight lover this is too much (or better phrased - not enough).

Once again I would even do it myself to improve the game. Just say a word...

Edited December 21, 2021 by Michi.G85

[silverdevil]

honestly IMO this is why DCS allows users to make their own and edit others' missions. i would bet money that creating / amending / fixing missions is pretty low on the totem pole. there are lots of other items to be fixed / improved. do your missions and post them up. i am certain many pilots would be thankful.

[Exorcet]

What's wrong with the mission planner? That is the realistic briefing. It's not perfect, but with the option to hide units on it, etc, it works reasonably well and is reasonably realistic when used properly. If the missions you mention aren't using these options effectively (I don't really play premade missions so I don't know how they work) that's not an issue with the planner. I do think intel and how it's presented needs some work, but mostly on the briefing screen since that is where the big spoilers are, as the mission designer doesn't really have control over what enemy units are lister or aren't.

[Michi.G85]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:59 PM, Exorcet said:

What's wrong with the mission planner? That is the realistic briefing. It's not perfect, but with the option to hide units on it, etc, it works reasonably well and is reasonably realistic when used properly. If the missions you mention aren't using these options effectively (I don't really play premade missions so I don't know how they work) that's not an issue with the planner. I do think intel and how it's presented needs some work, but mostly on the briefing screen since that is where the big spoilers are, as the mission designer doesn't really have control over what enemy units are lister or aren't.

On 12/9/2021 at 5:23 PM, silverdevil said:

honestly IMO this is why DCS allows users to make their own and edit others' missions. i would bet money that creating / amending / fixing missions is pretty low on the totem pole. there are lots of other items to be fixed / improved. do your missions and post them up. i am certain many pilots would be thankful.

The problem is that even though you got the planer, many times it is unclear what the mission is about. And as soon as you open the planer all mystery is gone, (exact) units positions, type and numbers are shown. Thats no fun at all and feels like cheating. At least make the units invisible in the first place. But still - even if you manage (somehow) to complete the objectives - often the succeessvalues aren´t set and you don´t really know whether you did your job right or not.

I know it sounds like bitching but I fly with a friend of mine who isn´t a simmer at all and thats one point we both hate about DCS. I imagine that we could increase the community quite a bit if the entry and fun wouldn´t be spoiled by so easily fixable shortcomings.

Yes, of course there are bigger bugs & problems to solve, but in my opinion it is crucial to have a real good working basic foundation.

[silverdevil]

@Michi.G85 sorry what i meant was the missions that DCS has by default, are sometimes suspect. not all though. some have entertained me immensely. there are lots of mission makers that love doing this and do a great job. if you are playing SP like i do, i open missions and edit them. change planes, enemies, skill level. just dont share them. it would be considered plagiarism. try going to User Files https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/filter/type-is-single/apply/ 

Edited December 10, 2021 by silverdevil

[will-]

If ED spent all their time designing missions we would be going backwards.  Most of us accept it for what it is at the moment, you seem fairly new to dcs if your expectation is that these missions should be layed out like some AAA single player immersive gameplay.  as you have experienced its not, but don't let it discourage u b/c there is some hidden gems.  I've even inquired about a mission where there is radio chatter i've never herd before and got no response as to why more missions are not like this.

I would suggest getting a good PC and playing multiplayer for the experience your wanting, until then we are waiting for the dynamic campaign.  instant action is great i think for what your aiming for.

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, Michi.G85 said:

The problem is that even though you got the planer, many times it is unclear what the mission is about. And as soon as you open the planer all mystery is gone, (exact) units positions, type and numbers are shown. Thats no fun at all and feels like cheating. At least make the units invisible in the first place. But still - even if you manage (somehow) to complete the objectives - often the succeessvalues aren´t set and you don´t really know whether you did your job right or not.

I know it sounds like bitching but I fly with a friend of mine who isn´t a simmer at all and thats one point we both hate about DCS. I imagine that we could increase the community quite a bit if the entry and fun wouldn´t be spoiled by so easily fixable shortcomings.

Yes, of course there are bigger bugs & problems to solve, but in my opinion it is crucial to have a real good working basic foundation.

Just to clarify again the planner does not have to show you where the enemy is. It can lie to you, I make my missions this way because intelligence is not always perfect. If the planner is showing you exact information, that's a problem with the specific mission that you're playing (and only a problem is that you are supposed to lack intelligence, sometimes you do know where the enemy is).

 

Fair enough on lacking information though. That can be an issue. I try to make briefings informative because other wise it can be very confusing for players. When it comes to completion though I like a little bit of ambiguity. I don't want a pop up appearing that says the mission is complete, I just want the pilot to succeed if they've followed their mission, though I can see if who some may not like that.

[draconus]

I play SP exclusively: instant action, training, single missions, campaigns (both free and DLC) and I never used Mission Planner. I always find the needed info in the briefing text and images. If you find the mission lacking such important info that is only the fault of the creator.

[Michi.G85]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:59 PM, Exorcet said:

What's wrong with the mission planner? That is the realistic briefing. It's not perfect, but with the option to hide units on it, etc, it works reasonably well and is reasonably realistic when used properly. If the missions you mention aren't using these options effectively (I don't really play premade missions so I don't know how they work) that's not an issue with the planner. I do think intel and how it's presented needs some work, but mostly on the briefing screen since that is where the big spoilers are, as the mission designer doesn't really have control over what enemy units are lister or aren't.

It's not perfect - it's not even enough. Try the A-10C Campaign Georgian Hammer and you will understand. Sometimes it doesn´t even say what the call sign of your own flight is. Not mentioning the "map" you can´t read anything of...

I mean so many games have done it right. Going back to 1993s X-Wing - even that had better (de-)breafings...

On 12/10/2021 at 11:52 PM, will- said:

If ED spent all their time designing missions we would be going backwards.  Most of us accept it for what it is at the moment, you seem fairly new to dcs if your expectation is that these missions should be layed out like some AAA single player immersive gameplay.  as you have experienced its not, but don't let it discourage u b/c there is some hidden gems.  I've even inquired about a mission where there is radio chatter i've never herd before and got no response as to why more missions are not like this.

I would suggest getting a good PC and playing multiplayer for the experience your wanting, until then we are waiting for the dynamic campaign.  instant action is great i think for what your aiming for.

Fairly new... yep... since BS1. That's about 10 years now in DCS...
And yes, the missions in the KA-50 are ones of the best - getting worse with every module. If ED isn´t in for this, then let it be for good. Let other players do great missions and include them (like they did with the BS). And it does discourage me. As said: I try to bring a friend to fly with me, but its just a bad joke for both of us...

[randomTOTEN]

Hello,

On 12/9/2021 at 11:07 AM, Michi.G85 said:

I´m mostly on SP so understand my frustration...

Unfortunately, I can only partially understand your frustration. You see, I don't own the F-14. So I can't make any observations on the "Missile City" mission.

But I can make some observations on the general topic of Mission Briefings and the Mission Planner. My perspective is as an experienced DCS User (and recently small time mission creator). I can say over the years that this is a common theme. People get very frustrated with this simulator, and declare it broken. A lot of times it is. A lot of times it isn't, but the process is interesting yet repetitive.

Lets skip to your analysis of the Georgian Oil War Campaign (because I own the A-10C).

On 12/9/2021 at 11:07 AM, Michi.G85 said:

If you really want to have fun, try the A-10C campaign "Georgian Hammer"  mission 3 ("Push 2-1").

Okay. I have never flown this campaign before, and never seen this mission before.

On 12/9/2021 at 11:07 AM, Michi.G85 said:

Targets?

I'm going to stop my reply here. It took me all of about 6 minutes reading the briefing and looking at the planner to know the answers to all your questions. But remember, I'm an experienced DCS user.

Would you like me to explain this very easy mission to you? To help you (and others reading) to perhaps learn the logic of the simulator, and how to make use of the tools which are available? Or are you interested in telling us how this is a bad mission brief and it's impossible to figure out what the player is supposed to do. I can just silently lurk the remainder of this thread if that's the goal.

Edited December 16, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[draconus]

3 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

Or are you interested in telling us how this is a bad mission brief and it's impossible to figure out what the player is supposed to do.

OP didn't asked for help or explanation, otherwise he would do so in an appropriate subforum.

[randomTOTEN]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

OP didn't asked for help or explanation, otherwise he would do so in an appropriate subforum.

This subforum is titled "General Bugs," within the category, "Bug and Problems"

Is there a bug here? Or a problem?

Edited December 16, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[draconus]

28 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

This subforum is titled "General Bugs," within the category, "Bug and Problems"

The thread was moved from general DCS 2.7 section so typical attention seeking.

[fagulha]

Although there´s room for improvement in the Debriefing i don´t see any problem with Mission Design or Mission Editor. Yes there are poorly briefed missions but i think because they are simple missions, although i rather create and fly mostly my missions i´ve seen well created missions (or free and paid campaigns) and it all comes to the mission/campaign creator. And DCS gives us all the tools needed to check target info etc so, i don´t see any issues, but i´m somewhat experienced to DCS overall and i understand it can be overwhelming to other users.

I wish a better structure for briefing/debriefing but i won´t consider a let down. I understand too that ED cannot expend so much time on created missions like some dedicated users/third parties to it and that is reflected in lacking some basic info in briefings etc.

But it´s just the way i see things.

[Michi.G85]

On 12/16/2021 at 4:47 AM, randomTOTEN said:

Hello,

Unfortunately, I can only partially understand your frustration. You see, I don't own the F-14. So I can't make any observations on the "Missile City" mission.

But I can make some observations on the general topic of Mission Briefings and the Mission Planner. My perspective is as an experienced DCS User (and recently small time mission creator). I can say over the years that this is a common theme. People get very frustrated with this simulator, and declare it broken. A lot of times it is. A lot of times it isn't, but the process is interesting yet repetitive.

Lets skip to your analysis of the Georgian Oil War Campaign (because I own the A-10C).

Okay. I have never flown this campaign before, and never seen this mission before.

I'm going to stop my reply here. It took me all of about 6 minutes reading the briefing and looking at the planner to know the answers to all your questions. But remember, I'm an experienced DCS user.

Would you like me to explain this very easy mission to you? To help you (and others reading) to perhaps learn the logic of the simulator, and how to make use of the tools which are available? Or are you interested in telling us how this is a bad mission brief and it's impossible to figure out what the player is supposed to do. I can just silently lurk the remainder of this thread if that's the goal.

 

Maybe I should insert that I´m talking about the german version. Don´t know how precise it is in english, but the german briefing is rather short and all it says is basicly: Your targets are this and that. No additional details if you should kill tanks, AA, do a loop or anything.

And yes - I know: I could take a look in the Mission Planer. But again: It spoils the whole mission for me.
It would be much more useful to put some basic drawings/maps/scribble as mission pictures. Maybe even a "satelite picture" of the area and/or targets. There is even a special option in the ME for this, where you can put pictures to the briefing.

I mean is it really that much asked for? I don´t need a Tom Clancy Storyline in each mission, but some basic information.
You are this. Start from here. Going there. Your targets are roughly at WP XY. Kill/locate/pet them. Be aware of this & that. Return. Your mission will count as success if A/B/C is acomplished.
That's it.

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Michi.G85 said:

Maybe I should insert that I´m talking about the german version.

That'd be rather important detail. You seem to manage english pretty well so why using german version? It's rather rare to include german translation in the missions. It is used when there is one, if not - it uses default - which is english. You should report this to the mission creator. If it is mission included with the module - then in the module's problems subforum.

[Michi.G85]

On 12/20/2021 at 8:16 AM, draconus said:

That'd be rather important detail. You seem to manage english pretty well so why using german version? It's rather rare to include german translation in the missions. It is used when there is one, if not - it uses default - which is english. You should report this to the mission creator. If it is mission included with the module - then in the module's problems subforum.

How do I switch from one version to another (without reinstall?)?

[draconus]

24 minutes ago, Michi.G85 said:

How do I switch from one version to another (without reinstall?)?

Try this: